View Poll Results: Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

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  • Yes

    55 29.57%
  • No

    131 70.43%
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Thread: Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

  1. #1271
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Athrawan View Post
    I repeat my position that all of these countries were involved in the buying, selling, and employment of slaves, but none of them made the enslavement of an entire "inferior" race a fundamental part of their governmental structure, nor of their reason for existing.
    I do understand your position, but what you're claiming isn't entirely true....

    My point is that just because these other nations didn't divide over the right to own/trade slaves and have a civil war over it - those governments very much embraced slavery - for both labor and trade.

    The U.K. abolished slavery only 32 years prior to the U.S.

    The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 (citation 3 & 4 Will. IV c. 73) was an 1833 Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom abolishing slavery throughout the British Empire.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver...ition_Act_1833
    February 4, 1794 France abolished slavery. Reinstated it in 1802 and finally abolished slavery again in 1848.

    As a nation France had a lukewarm commitment to abolition. Under Napoleon - France reestablished slavery in 1802 along with the reinstitution of the "Code noir", prohibiting Blacks, mulattoes and other people of color from entering French colonial territory or intermarrying with whites.

    These orders carried out by General Antoine Richepance brutally reinstituted slavery in the French Antilles in 1802. Thousands of people of color were killed in Guadeloupe alone as they fought to retain their freedom.

    France as a country finally ended slavery in 1848.

    France abolishes slavery | African American Registry
    The abolition of all forms of slavery occurred in 1761 on mainland Portugal and Portuguese India through a decree by the Marquis of Pombal

    The transatlantic slave trade was definitely outlawed altogether by Portugal in 1836, at the same time as other European powers, as a result of British pressure. Slavery within the African Portuguese colonies, however, would only be definitely abolished in 1869, following a treaty between United States and Britain for the suppression of the slave trade. In Brazil, which had become independent from Portugal in 1822, slavery was finally abolished in 1888.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Portugal
    I can go on with a fairly long list of countries whose government did incorporate the right to slave ownership into their laws or willfully condoned slavery for labor and trade. And slavery didn't end for some countries until nearly 20 years after the U.S. ended slavery in 1862...which of course divided the nation, created the Confederacy.

    From 1518 to the very latest date in which slavery was abolished - a lot of countries WERE GUILTY of slavery (for labor and trade) - BECAUSE - they all deemed Africans as inferior - almost animal like creatures only worthy for labor or trade.

    In the end...I don't believe that state governments should be publicly displaying the Confederate flag - anywhere (schools, government buildings, state parks, state monuments, etc.) BUT - I don't believe government has the right to BAN the confederate flag from citizens or private businesses.

    Thanks, Amigo...
    The theory that the U.S. Government has systematically been dumbing down the citizens for many decades has now been proven on November 8, 2016. In fact, not only proven, but quantified.

  2. #1272
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Not anywhere close to what I was saying....

    But keep avoiding the facts and changing the discussion if you want.
    You said the north had slaves, so the north was equally racist. The north decided to END slavery, and the south went to WAR to maintain it.

    Seems pretty obvious that the south had less interests in the freedom and liberty of black Americans.

  3. #1273
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Yes, self-governance in the case of the secession did in fact include keeping slavery legal. Nowhere did I DENY that, nor did I claim to AGREE to it. Just using their own words from the SC Declaration of Secession document.
    As for the 2nd sentence of your post...

    Aren't you the guy who claimed to have a doctorate degree?
    Im trying to figure out how a doctorate holder can't seem to follow a VERY simple concept... and has to resort to conjuring arguments I never made, and attributing them to me, in order to make his point.

    But, to answer your question in short... No I am not arguing that secession and the war were not related.

    I AM stating that the reasons for secession and the reasons why the war occurred are 2 different reasons. They DO RELATE to one another... but they aren't the the same.

    People with your line of thinking would claim that a man was shot by police because of a seat belt violation. When in actuality, the person shot by police was killed because during a traffic stop for a seat belt violation he pulled out a gun and fired upon police officers, who then killed him.

    Was his death RELATED to a seat belt violation? Sure. Was he shot FOR a seat belt violation? No.
    I do not have a doctorate degree.

    I don't know what you're trying to say. The reason for the civil war was that the south refused to endure an end to slavery. The confederate flag is a symbol of that refusal, and therefore a symbol of racist oppression. I don't see how you can possibly agree with so much, and yet deny that it is reasonable for a black American to be offended, intimidated, denigrated, or belittled by the confederate flag.

  4. #1274
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You said the north had slaves, so the north was equally racist.
    Slavery does not = Racism. You can have Racism without slavery. The fact that major heroes of the Union were also quite racist (Grant, Lincoln, etc) proves that racism existed despite the desire to remove the institution of slavery.

    The north decided to END slavery, and the south went to WAR to maintain it.
    You are jumping portions of history to reach this simplified position. The north decided to end slavery to gain support for the war (where recruiting in the north was lacking, and the british were in support of the south until emancipation) and the South didn't go to war to maintain slavery, they went to war to maintain their independence from the union. They SECEDED from the nation over slavery. Related, but not the same thing.

    Seems pretty obvious that the south had less interests in the freedom and liberty of black Americans.
    And yet, your statement fails when Free black slave owners in the south existed. They were free, and free to have the "liberty" (as they considered it) of owning slaves.

  5. #1275
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    I mean, raise the flag in front of your house. I don't care. Keep it off state property. There should be NO governmental endorsement of SLAVERY and racial oppression, flying in the air.

  6. #1276
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    I do not have a doctorate degree.

    I don't know what you're trying to say. The reason for the civil war was that the south refused to endure an end to slavery. The confederate flag is a symbol of that refusal, and therefore a symbol of racist oppression. I don't see how you can possibly agree with so much, and yet deny that it is reasonable for a black American to be offended, intimidated, denigrated, or belittled by the confederate flag.
    Slavery was their reason for secession... well.. it was the nexus of their many political reasons. The WAR was to preserve their independence from the Union. Related, but not the exact same thing (just like my police officer example).

    I have not claimed that it is unreasonable for black Americans to be offended........
    However, this idea that special protected minority groups have the right to not be offended, while the White Male (apparently the most evil body a spirit can by chance be placed in) does not also have this protection.

  7. #1277
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Slavery does not = Racism. You can have Racism without slavery. The fact that major heroes of the Union were also quite racist (Grant, Lincoln, etc) proves that racism existed despite the desire to remove the institution of slavery.

    You are jumping portions of history to reach this simplified position. The north decided to end slavery to gain support for the war (where recruiting in the north was lacking, and the british were in support of the south until emancipation) and the South didn't go to war to maintain slavery, they went to war to maintain their independence from the union. They SECEDED from the nation over slavery. Related, but not the same thing.

    And yet, your statement fails when Free black slave owners in the south existed. They were free, and free to have the "liberty" (as they considered it) of owning slaves.
    What? You had a token free black guy running around and suddenly that nullifies generations of racial oppression?

    There was still racism in that caucasians believed africans were, for example, less intelligent. That's still less racist than, say, enslaving africans and shipping them over here to toil in cotton fields 12 hrs a day under the crack of a whip.

  8. #1278
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    I mean, raise the flag in front of your house. I don't care. Keep it off state property. There should be NO governmental endorsement of SLAVERY and racial oppression, flying in the air.
    I agree..
    However the SC "state house" is a lie.

    The state house itself has a a SC and US flag on it. The confederate memorial located in front of the state house has a confederate battle flag on it.

    Regardless, the elected representatives of SC decided (through much help of the over offended persons lobby) to remove it. And I am fine with that.

  9. #1279
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    What? You had a token free black guy running around and suddenly that nullifies generations of racial oppression?
    Not at all. They were still quite racist. However, implying that they desired all black people to be enslaved is quite different from their desire to keep the slaves they had.

    There was still racism in that caucasians believed africans were, for example, less intelligent. That's still less racist than, say, enslaving africans and shipping them over here to toil in cotton fields 12 hrs a day under the crack of a whip.
    And I do not deny that.

  10. #1280
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    No...you arent able to see it apparently. I dont care what the states choose...to flu the confederate flag, a civil rights flag, hell...let their freak flag fly. It should just be THEIR choice without coercion by a bunch of cause driven ****heads.
    The people like you that would like the Confederate flag to stay are cause driven. You said that you were a bit worked about it because you grew up in the South. You tried to make a case for the Confederate flag based on your personal experiences with your neighbors. And made it clear that you think that anyone who disagrees is a moron. You my friend are cause driven.


    Im good with not letting States fly screwy flags on Government grounds. It doesnt impede on the rights or liberties of individuals. A States government has no right to fly some lame ass flag. But you seem to think that if a bunch of cause driven ****heads in a State want to fly a CHe flag on the State capitol then it ok it was their decision. Screw that just disallow all flags except the official Federal, State, Local flags on public property. Then we wont ever have some silly ass flag flying on public property.

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