View Poll Results: Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

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  • Yes

    55 29.57%
  • No

    131 70.43%
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Thread: Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

  1. #1221
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Please, show me that it was an argument "used by the south to justify slavery" and not just an argument used by those in the south.

    Anyone who knows anything about history knows that the Civil War was not fought to end slavery.
    Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

    It's not even debatable....the Civil war was fought over slavery. To say otherwise, is just pure willful ignorance.

    And what dose that have to do with me?
    You asked me to show you an an argument used by the south to justify slavery. There are several listed in the link that I posted if you care to read it....

    Lost Cause of the South - RationalWiki

  2. #1222
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Athrawan View Post
    G'Day,mate. There are many flags that flew representing countries whose record on equality left much to be desired. The fundamental difference between those countries and the Confederate States of America, is that they did not make the slavery of another race a fundamental clause in their instrument of government, while the Confederacy made it integral to their Constitution.
    G'Day to you too, mate...

    I don't necessarily disagree with your comments.

    My personal opinion is that I don't think that it should be displayed at State governments/institutions. But that's not saying that I opine that it should be banned from existence in the USA. I don't at all see it in the same light as say, Hitler's Swastika flag, which he replaced Germany's national flag with.

    From a historical standpoint, the Confederacy was created by a incredible philosophical division within a nation, between its citizens - over whether there was a fundamental right to own slaves. And in the end...yes...the Confederate flag was symbolic of that division.

    But lets not be naive here.

    At the birth of our nation, the industrial age was at the zygote stage here in American so - "economically speaking" - a fair number of men associated with creating our government hated the idea of industrialization because they believed that our destiny was rooted in fruits of our labor that could only come from working the soil. Obviously - the labor part - is where slavery comes in. At least for the elite who were creating our nation.

    Most of the founders/framers of the United States of America were elite white male slave owners. They made their fortunes using slaves. We don't think about this reality because for all practical purposes it was (and still is) "omitted as a fact of history" in education institutions from the 12 grade and under. Consequently, from an educational standpoint, our young minds were never engaged in a way to even consider that our founders were wrongfully involved in the ownership of other human beings, which were used for uncompensated labor and a considered to be commodities, in and of themselves.

    I've been around a few decades. Until I went to college...just the thought of our founders being slave owners - was a foreign idea or concept. And while college level history doesn't often candy coat history - in my American History class...my mind just skipped over esoteric implications of our founders being slave owners, which should have jarred me, not only intellectually, but emotionally in some way.

    I'm personally not aware of any generation that has been seriously educated about the staunch realities regarding our founders support of, and use of enslaved human beings (which of course they called property). Not only that, but many believed that they had an inalienable right to own a species of life resembling human beings to provide free labor and sell even at will like a John Deere Tractor.

    Even today...by technical/propaganda default (IOWs - by reasons related to the historical gloss over or omission of facts presented to most people) - most folks don't indulge in seriously pondering the fact that our at the dawn of nation - its core economy - had much to do with the use of slave labor for enterprise purposes - and that included breeding and selling slaves. Should people ponder such? I think so. But from reading much of this thread, a lot of people would disagree.

    So...I think that people should have the right to make bumper stickers, Tee-shirts bikinis and beer koozies that looks like a Confederate flag - or even fly one on their own property. And if doing such offends others, too bad. People have the right to be offended. And those who offend have a right to do that too as long as they don't, in some malicious way, cause injury or mortal harm to others.

    After all...that's what a lot of people do the the United States flag. Some folks even burn them. Offensive? I'm betting to a lot of people..yes. But in the same vein, too bad. The 1st Amendment applies to both of these situations.
    The theory that the U.S. Government has systematically been dumbing down the citizens for many decades has now been proven on November 8, 2016. In fact, not only proven, but quantified.

  3. #1223
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Athrawan View Post
    G'Day,mate. There are many flags that flew representing countries whose record on equality left much to be desired. The fundamental difference between those countries and the Confederate States of America, is that they did not make the slavery of another race a fundamental clause in their instrument of government, while the Confederacy made it integral to their Constituion.
    Oh...Before I forget...(and really didn't have enough character space in my previous post)....

    What about the flag of England?

    Between 1761 and 1808, British traders hauled 1,428,000 African captives across the Atlantic and pocketed $96.5 million – about $13 billion in value today – from selling them as slaves.

    From 1500 to 1860, by very modest estimations, around 12 million Africans were traded into slavery in the Americas. In British vessels alone, 3.25 million Africans were shipped. These voyages were often very profitable. For instance, in the 17th century, the Royal Africa Company could buy an enslaved African with trade goods worth $5 and sell that person in the Americas for $32, making an average net profit of 38 percent per voyage.

    Slave-owning planters and merchants who dealt in slaves and slave produce were among the richest people in 18th-century Britain, but many other British citizens benefited from the human trafficking industry.
    What about the flag of France?

    With over 1,600,000 enslaved Africans transported to the West Indies, France was clearly a major player in the trade. Its slave ports were a major contributor to the country’s economic advancements in the 18th century. Many of its cities on the west coast, such as Nantes, Lorient, La Rochelle, and Bordeaux, built their wealth through the major profits of triangular slave trade.

    Between 1738 and 1745, from Nantes, France’s leading slave port, 55,000 slaves were taken to the New World in 180 ships. From 1713 to 1775, nearly 800 vessels in the slave trade sailed from Nantes.
    What about the Netherland's?

    The Dutch West India Company, a chartered company of Dutch merchants, was established in 1621 as a monopoly over the African slave trade to Brazil, the Caribbean and North America.

    WIC had offices in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Hoorn, Middelburg and Groningen, but one-fourth of Africans transported across the Atlantic by the company were moved in slave ships from Amsterdam. Almost all of the money that financed slave plantations in Suriname and the Antilles came from bankers in Amsterdam, just as many of the ships used to transport slaves were built there.

    Many of the raw materials that were turned into finished goods in Amsterdam, such as sugar and coffee, were grown in the colonies using slave labor and then refined in factories in the Jordaan neighborhood.

    Revenue from the goods produced with slave labor funded much of The Netherlands’ golden age in the 17th century, a period renowned for its artistic, literary, scientific, and philosophical achievements.

    Slave labor created vast sources of wealth for the Dutch in the form of precious metals, sugar, tobacco, cocoa, coffee and cotton and other goods, and helped to fund the creation of Amsterdam’s beautiful and famous canals and city center.
    What about Portugal's Flag?

    Portugal was the first of all European countries to become involved in the Atlantic slave trade. From the 15th to 19th century, the Portuguese exported 4.5 million Africans as slaves to the Americas, making it Europe’s largest trafficker of human beings.

    Slave labor was the driving force behind the growth of the sugar economy in Portugal’s colony of Brazil, and sugar was the primary export from 1600 to 1650. Gold and diamond deposits were discovered in Brazil in 1690, which sparked an increase in the importation of African slaves to power this newly profitable market.
    And of course...there was Spain...but I don't have enough character space.

    Top 6 Countries That Grew Filthy Rich From Enslaving Black People - Atlanta Blackstar

    Just sayin....

    Thanks, mate...
    The theory that the U.S. Government has systematically been dumbing down the citizens for many decades has now been proven on November 8, 2016. In fact, not only proven, but quantified.

  4. #1224
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Can you fly a Confederate flag (or any flag) right now in front of your house? Yes? Then what are you getting all "spun up" for?


    I did not create this thread. I am just talking about the subject matter. I am not getting spun up by a flag or some TV show. What TV show are you talking about? I never mentioned any TV show in this thread.

    I think that you are just making up **** and trying to make me argue for it.
    Its not just you but yes...there are a whole lot of people that are twisted over this fabricated outrage. It gives you a cause to help you feel all better about yourself. Its the equivalent of being worked up over the Redskins team name while you completely ignore the vast social ills infecting the American Indian population. Precisely the same thing.

  5. #1225
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    So pointing out that slavery occurred in the north somehow diminishes slavery in the south? It just looks like your trying to water down slavery in the south so they won't look so bad.

    California was brought into the union as a free state. Yes, I lived there for some time, but I wasn't born there.
    Do you believe that California residents that proudly fly the bear also bear the brunt of racism that permeated California for decades as directed towards Asians?

    And no...no one is diminishing the actions of the Southern slave states. No one has. Merely pointing out how silly you all look eating your own **** brownies.

  6. #1226
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Im pretty certain my comments you responded to in THIS post were talking about the Civil War.... in a thread talking about the Confederate Flag... and were in response to the topic of slavery....
    The problem is the history of the Confederate flag or Rebel flag includes its recent history. It is its recent history that so condemns that particular flag. The flag in question was just one of many flown by the Confederacy and their armies during its brief history, but only one of them, a particular flag, was the symbol for Jim Crow and was raised by those in positions of power wanting to continue it. It's why Root, the murderer, didn't pick one of the other many available historical flags of the Confederacy, he like the modern KKK and many other modern racists like the leaders of Southern states fighting to continue Jim Crow all picked the same symbol. It's not an accident.

    Bringing the conversation of that flag's history back to the 1860s just deliberately obscures all of that.

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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    And what did the institution of Slavery protect for Southerners?

    The profitability of their agricultural economy?

    Yep.


    Also that bit about the negro not being equal to the white man.... Abraham Lincoln said that **** too.....
    Great point - Lincoln's views of blacks were indistinguishable from the leaders of the Confederacy, which is why the Southern states seceded before Lincoln was even inaugurated, and said at the time that in large part the reason was Lincoln's and the Republican party's view of...slavery and blacks.

    BTW, I know this is nitpicking, but there seems to be some small difference between "I think blacks are inferior but are nonetheless entitled to all the civil and human rights of whites" versus "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

    Admittedly, being free (and considered inferior) versus being enslaved and stripped of ALL of your human and civil rights are just small differences, but I suspect blacks at the time probably preferred the former versus the latter. Just a guess.

  8. #1228
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Its not just you but yes...there are a whole lot of people that are twisted over this fabricated outrage. It gives you a cause to help you feel all better about yourself. Its the equivalent of being worked up over the Redskins team name while you completely ignore the vast social ills infecting the American Indian population. Precisely the same thing.
    Im not get twisted or outraged of the Confederate flag. I shared my view just as you have in this same thread. And you have made many more posts in this thread than I have, what does that say about you?

    A quick search shows that you have been bitching up a storm at people bitching about the Confederate flag. http://www.debatepolitics.com/search...archid=4573850
    So it seems that you are the one getting all worked up.

    Its just a the flag of the army that the US defeated. Get over it. If you want to fly any flag on your private property have at it. Anything on public property is going to be debated by people with differing views. You bitching about views that dont match yours is rather ignorant. How about instead of bitching that you offer a legit explanation as to why the Confederate flag in your opinion doesnt represent slavery directly?

  9. #1229
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    It would be like the Yankees baseball team changing their logo, and people who love being a New Yorker (because yes, the NY Yankees logo is often used as a "symbol" of New York by non baseball fans) being told their old Yankees hat or "flag" offends everyone because its the symbol the Yankees used during the days when blacks weren't allowed in baseball or some such nonsense.
    Sheesh, your denial is deep. In this picture, the sign and the flag stand for the same thing. Wave either one and your position is clear:



    In your example, the Yankee banner never stood for segregation.

    If the Yankees had raised a different banner to fly under the Yankees banner to protest integrating the major leagues, and white racists in the stands calling out "n****r" all held that banner, damn right THAT banner would represent racism, support for segregation, etc.
    Last edited by JasperL; 07-09-15 at 07:51 PM.

  10. #1230
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I would have said Urban areas across the country are a bit more racist...especially with some of the conflict between black and brown...but I agree its a universal construct. Which is why, to me, this emphasis on the Confederate flag is such a ridiculous side-show.
    The State institutions shouldn't be flying it. It is offensive to many people.

    Pulling The Dukes of Hazard off the air was ridiculous. It's their channel, they can do that. Maybe advertisers pressured them into it. It is over the top, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
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