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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Another reason to like "the student's" contributions.

I might never have read this quote until today (although I'd read similar things from Confederate leaders) :

"“Within the army, secrecy was maintained. Only now & then did rumor of the meeting seep out. After securing a pledge of confidentiality from Colonel James Nisbet, Brigadier General Clement Stevens told him the secret of Cleburne’s astonishing proposal. Stevens suggested that although Cleburne was a “skilled army officer, & true to the Southern cause,” he did not have a “proper conception of the Negro, he being foreign born & reared.” When Nisbet responded that he thought arming slaves was a good idea, Stevens exploded. Slavery, he declared, was the cause of the war & the reason why the South was fighting. “If slavery is to be abolished then I take no more interest in our fight. The justification of slavery in the South is the inferiority of the negro. If we make him a soldier, we concede the whole question.” Steven’s outburst was evidence of how badly Cleburne had misread the society he called his own. Cleburne’s assumption that “every patriot will freely give up……the negro slave rather than be a slave himself” failed to take into consideration the fact that many southerners viewed the loss of slavery as virtually synonymous with the loss of their own liberty. ”

Rantings of a Civil War Historian » The Lost Cause remains alive and well?.
 
Ryriena said:
It funny, I never said that all the people would be thrilled I just pointed out their where people who did wany to gradually move away from slavery. It's human nature to have people in all groups to be averse to change. At least when it done gradually, we wouldn't have the problems with race today....

And also paper view, just because she was Irish doesn't mean they aren't from the south.
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Your desperation is noted. However, it's silly revisionism at best. A few officials being desperate to pump up the confederacy's numbers and bring in a new influx of people whose condition the confederacy was fighting to maintain is not proof that the confederacy was moving towards abolitionism. It's simply proof of desperation at a point when defeat was guaranteed.
 
Ryriena said:
I just proved their where people in the south and north that wanted to gradually move from slavery..
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"People." A couple....people. A few Foreign borns is all you present. And they were promptly cut at the knees by the overwhelming majority who couldn't even begin to entertain the thought of abolishing slavery.

You proved nothing even close, not even a smidgeon of your claim:


quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Ryriena
Their were plans being drawn up in the south by political leaders to move away from the slave trade as a economic solution.
..."
 
Hatuey said:
Your desperation is noted. However, it's silly revisionism at best. A few officials being desperate to pump up the confederacy's numbers and bring in a new influx of people whose condition the confederacy was fighting to maintain is not proof that the confederacy was moving towards abolitionism. It's simply proof of desperation at a point when defeat was guaranteed.
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Whatever, it's not being desperate for pointing that out son, also he wanted that information anyway. A few officials? I just provid several ideas, when have I denied slavery was an issues?
 
Ryriena said:
And also paper view, just because she was Irish doesn't mean they aren't from the south.
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Maybe the South of Scotland?

She'd only come to the US a few years earlier, and the year she founded her failed Utopian community, in 1825, was the same year she became a US citizen.

Mighty strange metrics for saying a soul is "from the South."
 
Ryriena said:
Whatever, it's not being desperate for pointing that out son, also he wanted that information anyway. A few officials? I just provid several ideas, when have I denied slavery was an issues?
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You're trying way too many straw man arguments at once. I said your position is desperate at best. The confederacy itself was founded with the belief that whites had a god given place above blacks. Some of its officials being desperate in its finals days is not proof that it was moving towards an abolitionist position. Similar actions are found across the globe when one side is losing, ideas get thrown out but they aren't proof of anything. For example, in the early 1960s, Krushchev suggested ideas that were capitalist in nature as he noticed a general stagnation in the USSR's production output. Is that proof that the USSR was moving towards capitalism? No. It's evidence that a few people considered other options, it's not a reflection on the group as a whole. Now please, your point is absurd, give it up, it's not really convincing anyone.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Thrilla said:
flags don't fight wars.... people do.
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I like you defense for the flag, it made me :lamo
It's not the flag that is being debated it the meaning of it to many people that is being debated.
 
Hatuey said:
You're trying way too many straw man arguments at once. I said your position is desperate at best. The confederacy itself was founded with the belief that whites had a god given place above blacks. Some of its officials being desperate in its finals days is not proof that it was moving towards an abolitionist position. Similar actions are found across the globe when one side is losing, ideas get thrown out but they aren't proof of anything. For example, in the early 1960s, Krushchev suggested ideas that were capitalist in nature as he noticed a general stagnation in the USSR's production output. Is that proof that the USSR was moving towards capitalism? No. It's evidence that a few people considered other options, it's not a reflection on the group as a whole. Now please, your point is absurd, give it up, it's not really convincing anyone.
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Hold up, hold up, mate.

If may interject. In the matter at hand Ryriena responded to yet another bait post by Paperview. If you follow the thread from way back you will see that Paperview's method is to bait, flame to either cause those with opposing views to respond in a manner in which they will get gigged or thread banned. He isn't all that interested in the topic. Failing that - as he so often has - he spams the thread attempting to create tangental arguments. That, my friend, is where we are at this particular point in the thread.

Ryriena made a comment a while back that there were plans to free slaves in the South. It was NOT a major point of discussion and it doesn't seem to me that Ryriena intended it to be. She said, in fact, that she had read of such plans but she couldn't recall where. End of discussion.

Paperview, coming from having his hat handed to him once again, all embarrassed, was looking for away to bait Ryriena and/or start a tangental argument.

I can't tell you what Ryriena's initial point was. However, having followed her through much of this thread it would be out of character for her to make the argument you are making. That is PV's shuck and jive. Ryreina may even agree with most of what you are saying.

In fact during the revolutionary war the same argument was made and the same argument failed. Even still over 5,000 African-Americans joined and fought the British.

Ryriena did not attempt to tie the plans to abolition. I also provided a link to plans. I can tell you I'm not linking it to a direct abolitionist movement.

Paperview stated that he would like to see links to the plans. She obviously searched and provided links. I provided a link as well.

You and I have no history, I think we respect each other. I'd be happy to tell you what I see as perhaps significant in the links provided. I knew about Cleburne but I did not know about the other link she provided. Paperview, is simply interested in gotcha posting. I know you to be a rather analytical person. If you want I'll tell you what I see and why the links are interesting. It won't happen in two sentences and a cut and paste.
 
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Risky Thicket said:
Hold up, hold up, mate.

If may interject. In the matter at hand Ryriena responded to yet another bait post by Paperview. If you follow the thread from way back you will see that Paperview's method is to bait, flame to either cause those with opposing views to respond in a manner in which they will get gigged or thread banned. He isn't all that interested in the topic. Failing that - as he so often has - he spams the thread attempting to create tangental arguments. That, my friend, is where we are at this particular point in the thread.

Ryriena made a comment a while back that there were plans to free slaves in the South. It was NOT a major point of discussion and it doesn't seem to me that Ryriena intended it to be. She said, in fact, that she had read of such plans but she couldn't recall where. End of discussion.

Paperview, coming from having his hat handed to him once again, all embarrassed, was looking for away to bait Ryriena and/or start a tangental argument.

I can't tell you what Ryriena's initial point was. However, having followed her through much of this thread it would be out of character for her to make the argument you are making. That is PV's shuck and jive. Ryreina may even agree with most of what you are saying.

In fact during the revolutionary war the same argument was made and the same argument failed. Even still over 5,000 African-Americans joined and fought the British.

Ryriena did not attempt to tie the plans to abolition. I also provided a link to plans. I can tell you I'm not linking it to a direct abolitionist movement.

Paperview stated that he would like to see links to the plans. She obviously searched and provided links. I provided a link as well.

You and I have no history, I think we respect each other. I'd be happy to tell you what I see as perhaps significant in the links provided. I knew about Cleburne but I did not know about the other link she provided. Paperview, is simply interested in gotcha posting. I know you to be a rather analytical person. If you want I'll tell you what I see and why the links are interesting. It won't happen in two sentences and a cut and paste.
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:lamo

I have clobbered over and over again neo-confederate arguments, you run to the "the student's" defense, and get clobbered again...and this is your best "aw ****" defense.

Ad homing me and pretending I have some mysterious hat in hand. lol

Gowan again telling us how the North was equally responsible as the South in the culmination of the Civil War -- it's been amusing.


Really.
 
Risky didn't even know the overwhelming majority of those 4 million slaves (THINK ABOUT THAT!)

in 1860 he cites didn't come over in slave ships.
 
Risky Thicket said:
He isn't all that interested in the topic.
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That is sort of ironic, since the topic is about the removal of the CBF, not how culpable the New England fleet was in slavery. After the early 1800's, New England was not where the demand for slaves was. The topic again is the representation of the slave system and arguments over why this symbol should be put away. We have already seen the "Old Glory represented slavery too" argument, and that had been countered, if you bothered to read through the thread. You don't want to face up to the ideology of the Confederacy, what the symbol at base represented, you want to distract with New England ships. The owners/captains/crews would have been out of the business IF there was not a demand, and again, NE did not create the demand, the South did and the base ideology justified the institution till the Confederacy was defeated. It is dead, let the symbols of the ideology die too.
 
Ryriena said:
I just proved their where people in the south and north that wanted to gradually move from slavery..
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Nobody disputes that...

EDIT: Just noticed that Ryiena is banned. No surprise.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

mnicholson2 said:
I like you defense for the flag, it made me :lamo
It's not the flag that is being debated it the meaning of it to many people that is being debated.
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Thanks for clearing that up...
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
Still shouldn't be banned...
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I don't want it banned either.

But I do think it should be removed from any public buildings except museums.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
Still shouldn't be banned...
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Please point out where I said anything about banning? Assuming only makes an as out of U not me, lol.
 
Bodhisattva said:
By your choice... so, apparently it is not cool.
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No, that is a reference to your never-ending misunderstanding of simple, clear posts.



Go back and SLOWLY read the part of the post that you quoted... but left out.
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I was referring to an imagined deity.....which was made CLEAR IN THE ORIGINAL POST. I swear, sometimes it is absolutely impossible to communicate with you. Is it the time zone, a Coriolis effect....who knows?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Black Dog said:
Please point out where I said anything about banning? Assuming only makes an as out of U not me, lol.
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You didn't.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
No, that is a reference to your never-ending misunderstanding of simple, clear posts.



I was referring to an imagined deity.....which was made CLEAR IN THE ORIGINAL POST. I swear, sometimes it is absolutely impossible to communicate with you. Is it the time zone, a Coriolis effect....who knows?
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Since we are on the same page, and I made that clear already... perhaps we could just move on?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Since we are on the same page
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ROFLOL...no...we aren't, and this goes right to the heart of the matter of your sporadic, total misunderstanding of what I'm saying.

and I made that clear already... perhaps we could just move on?
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I have no idea why you keep quoting me on this, you didn't get it, you know you didn't, but you keep acting as if you know who I was supposed to be respectful to, whereas I was never being "disrespectful" to RT's person and I am not required to be "respectful" of imaginary deities to which you already said:

I think the notion of god is stupid.

So AGAIN, you never could say WHO I WAS SUPPOSED TO RESPECT. Instead, you kept going on and on, making less and less sense. If you want to drop it.....good grief, do it.
 
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