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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Paperview said:
??

He was correct. The premise is spot on --

The Southern states said it over and over the "natural order" was of that of the superior Whites, as established by God -- it was in their documents, and expressed by their leaders.

"African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing."

"We recognize the negro as God and God's Book and God's Laws, in nature, tell us to recognize him—our inferior, fitted expressly for servitude ...You cannot transform the negro into anything one-tenth as useful or as good as what slavery enables them to be."
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I was talking about something quite different.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Thanks, Moot but just like you I'm trying to learn. In terms of slavery the truth is damn near always ugly. It's ugly on both sides of the conflict and its ugly everywhere. I've read some of the information a while back. Debates here have given me a reason, sometimes a new reason, to return and read it again. That's been good for me. I often see in a different perspective and I learn again.

I do make every attempt to be objective. When I am expressing my opinion I think/hope I have not forwarded it as fact.

Thank you for the questions and the opportunity to research and re-read and re-assess.
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I love learning about history and finding obscure details that I never knew before. This thread has been great for that. I enjoyed our discussion and Chagos, too. "Research, re-read and re-assess"...excellent advice.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Just like you are not bud, he is not gawd. Have the same respect.
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I never called RT "gawd". If you are demanding I "respect" an imaginary entity (and since you did not capitalize "he", by your own religious position you disrespected your deity), look in my eye.
 
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Risky Thicket said:
Compared to where? The fully integrated North? I've traveled all over America, still do. I don't know that I've seen cities where African-Americans enjoy full equality in housing, employment and education. Where is it in America that African-Americans are not discriminated against? Where is it that no one is racist? Where is it that African-Americans in America aren't experiencing judicial prejudice that is tantamount to the second round of Jim Crow?
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Straw argument, this is the "we aren't so bad since perfection doesn't exist" argument.

Prejudice.JPG

The Geography of Racial Stereotyping: Evidence and Implications for VRA Preclearance After Shelby County by Christopher S. Elmendorf, Douglas M. Spencer :: SSRN
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Straw argument, this is the "we aren't so bad since perfection doesn't exist" argument.
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"Both sides!!" and all that.

BTW, we in Tennessee love Mississippi. If there's a ranking of shame (most racist, worst schools, most obese, etc.) we can always depend on Mississippi, and often Alabama and Louisiana, to keep Tennessee off the "#1 WORST" spot in the rankings.
 
Moot said:
I concede, Risky. You were right, aside from the British, most of the slave trade ships were made and operated by New Englanders, but it doesn't appear that it was sanctioned by the government or the people. Anyway, thank you for providing such good sources.
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It took a while to follow up. Once again I had to plow through what I have and I still haven't found some of the information I want to post in addressing the above.

By 1860, New England was home to 172 cotton mills, build on rivers and streams throughout the region. Hundreds of other textile mills were scattered in New York State, New Jersey, and elsewhere in the North. Just between 1830 and 1840, Northern mill consumed more than 100 million pounds of Southern cotton. With shipping and manufacturing included, the economy of much of New England was connected to textiles.
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By 1840 in New England over 100,000 people were in textile manufacturing. Lowell and Lawrence, Massachusetts were established as textile towns.

In the decades before the Civil War, New York City's bustling seaport became the hub of an enormously lucrative illegal slave trade. Manhattan shipyards built ships to carry captive Africans, the vessels often outlined with crates and shackles and with the huge water tanks needed for human cargo. A conservative estimate is that during the illegal trade's peak years, 1859 and 1986, at least two slave ships - each built to hold between 600 and 1,000 slaves - left lower Manhattan every month.
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Source: Complicity by Anne Farrow


New England and the Mid-Atlantic began their economic ascent in the eighteenth century because the regions grew and shipped food to help feed millions of slaves - in the West Indies
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Source: The Atlantic Slave Trade by Joseph Inikori


The slave trade helped to build the growing economies of northern seaports like Bristol, and supported the economies of many towns along the New England coast or further inland. Slave traders paid shipbuilders, insurers, blacksmiths, and a wide variety of other tradesmen, merchants, and farmers. New York financial institutions were heavily invested in slavery. Almost every business and industry in the region traded or did business with merchants or shippers whose wealth was generated by slavery. In addition, those who invested in slaving voyages came from almost all walks of life: while wealthy families such as the DeWolfs were often significant investors, smaller shares in voyages would be owned by ordinary tradesmen and artisans, such as blacksmiths, masons, bakers, rope-makers, painters, and those engaged in various forms of manual labor.
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Source: Traces of the Trade

Between 1709 and 1807, Rhode Island merchants sponsored at least 934 slaving voyages to the coast of Africa. Their ships carried an estimated 106,544 Africans from their homeland to the New World (Coughtry). Of the 421 Rhode Island slavers tabulated for the period of 1784 to 1807, 402 or 95% can be identified today by port of ownership. Three hundred and ninety-seven (98.8%) of the vessels were registered in one of the following Rhode Island towns: Bristol, Newport, Providence, and Warren. The remaining vessels were owned by merchants in Little Compton, or North Kingstown. Together, Newport and Bristol accounted for 318 African voyages, or 79.2% of post war trade which they shared equally (Coughtry). Each financed 159 ventures or 39.6% of the joint total. Providence made 55 trips, 13.74% of the total, and tiny Warren, R.I. made 24 trips with 6% of the share (Coughtry). All together, 204 different Rhode Island citizens owned a share or more in a slave voyage at one time or another. It is evident that the involvement of R.I. citizens in the slave trade was widespread and abundant. For Rhode Islanders, slavery had provided a major new profit sector and an engine for trade in the West Indies.
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Source: Providence College
 
Gimmesometruth said:
I never called RT "gawd". If you are demanding I "respect" an imaginary entity (and since you did not capitalize "he", by your own religious position you disrespected your deity), look in my eye.
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I think the notion of god is stupid...
 
Gimmesometruth said:
And here we go......so who was I supposed to "respect"? You have not said.
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I thought that you were referring to God. My bad. No biggy. No worries. Cool?
 
JasperL said:
"Both sides!!" and all that.

BTW, we in Tennessee love Mississippi. If there's a ranking of shame (most racist, worst schools, most obese, etc.) we can always depend on Mississippi, and often Alabama and Louisiana, to keep Tennessee off the "#1 WORST" spot in the rankings.
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The state motto of Arkansas is "Thank God for Mississippi." They say that all the trees in Alabama lean to the west because Mississippi sucks.

I'm from NC but have family in Alabama, SC and Tennessee, so I get your meaning perfectly.
 
According too the Pat Cleburn plan, not one but many generals sgined said plan.
These where the people who sgined said plan

P. R. Cleburne, major-general, commanding division
D. C. Govan, brigadier-general
John E. Murray, colonel, Fifth Arkansas
G. F. Baucum, colonel, Eighth Arkansas
Peter Snyder, lieutenant-colonel, commanding Sixth and Seventh Arkansas
E. Warfield, lieutenant-colonel, Second Arkansas
M. P. Lowrey, brigadier-general
A. B. Hardcastle, colonel, Thirty-second and Forty-fifth Mississippi
F. A. Ashford, major, Sixteenth Alabama
John W. Colquitt, colonel, First Arkansas
Rich. J. Person, major, Third and Fifth Confederate
G. S. Deakins, major, Thirty-fifth and Eighth Tennessee
J. H. Collett, captain, commanding Seventh Texas
J. H. Kelly, brigadier-general, commanding Cavalry Division
 
Ryriena said:
Found the Patrick Cleburne's Proposal to Arm Slaves

http://www.moc.org/sites/default/files/PDFs/microsoft_word_-_symonds_lecture_summary.pdf
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Yeah. Thanks for that.

Did you perhaps read till the end:

"This remarkable and controversial proposal from one of the Confederacy's most well-respected field commanders may have been a contributing factor to why Patrick Cleburne was never promoted to higher levels of command within the Confederate Army."



OOps. We know it never stood a chance. Pointing to a few folks ...who went against the grain of all the other leaders, ha. Sorry.

We know the majority never even considered it until the last month of the war - when they were nothing but a near bloodied corpse of an organization.
 
Ryriena said:
History Engine: Tools for Collaborative Education and Research | Episodes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Wright

Was a free thinker of her time. In 1780 for an example, their was an act for the gradual abolition.
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Now you go back even further...to a Scottish born woman, who had a plan to abolish slavery that failed in short order ?? What the heck is your point? we can point to lots of Northern people who wanted to abolish slavery.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_for_the_Gradual_Abolition_of_Slavery
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And more. lol. Pennsylvania was always strongly abolitionist. Why are you trying very hard to make a Yankee's point?

I mean, I don't mind and all, but you should know: you're doing a great job of demolishing your own argument.

For that, we say: Tanks!
 
Ryriena said:
http://www.moc.org/sites/default/files/PDFs/microsoft_word_-_symonds_lecture_summary.pdf
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You obviously didn't even read this one either - from the "Museum of the Confederacy," no less.


<snip>
"Several of those present responded to Cleburne with “emotional, verbal attacks.” William. Bate called Cleburne's ideas “the serpent of abolitionism” and believed that white soldiers would quit in disgust if blacks were conscripted."

Keep reading from there. It gets better. The PDF won't paste well. It reads like this:

"H e a l s o e x p r e ss e d d i s m a y t h a t it w a s t h e w e ll - li k e d C l e bu r n e w ho h a d m a d e t h e s e s u gg e s ti on s . W . H . G . W a l k e r d i s mi ss e d C l e bu r n e ’ s i d ea s a s “ t r ea s on. ”

But let's go elsewhere for a recap:


Quote:
“If Cleburne was disappointed by the lack of enthusiastic support, he soon heard much worse. William Bate, Patton Anderson, & especially W.H.T Walker all made emotional attacks on Cleburne’s proposal. Bate declared that Cleburne’s proposals were “hideous & objectionable”, & he branded them as nothing less than the “serpent of Abolitionism”. He predicted that the army would mutiny at the very suggestion of such a scheme. Anderson called it a “monstrous proposition” that was “revolting to Southern sentiment, Southern Pride, & Southern honor”. He also predicted that if black troops were enlisted, the white troops would all quit in disgust…….Walker was the most offended, asserting that the proposal was nothing less than treason, & that any officer advocating it should be held fully accountable.”


What I find interesting here are two things. First is that here is yet another primary account of a Southern officer offering up the major cause of the war. Second is the notion of “black” Confederates. Here you have several divisional commanders scattered throughout the Army of Tennessee declaring that “armed” blacks would be detrimental to the existence of the army."

Rantings of a Civil War Historian » The Lost Cause remains alive and well?.
 
Desperation is trying to make the confederacy seem like a group of people who really had no problem with blacks and would have generally welcomed them amongst their ranks.
 
Ryriena said:
According too the Pat Cleburn plan, not one but many generals sgined said plan.
These where the people who sgined said plan

P. R. Cleburne, major-general, commanding division
D. C. Govan, brigadier-general
John E. Murray, colonel, Fifth Arkansas
G. F. Baucum, colonel, Eighth Arkansas
Peter Snyder, lieutenant-colonel, commanding Sixth and Seventh Arkansas
E. Warfield, lieutenant-colonel, Second Arkansas
M. P. Lowrey, brigadier-general
A. B. Hardcastle, colonel, Thirty-second and Forty-fifth Mississippi
F. A. Ashford, major, Sixteenth Alabama
John W. Colquitt, colonel, First Arkansas
Rich. J. Person, major, Third and Fifth Confederate
G. S. Deakins, major, Thirty-fifth and Eighth Tennessee
J. H. Collett, captain, commanding Seventh Texas
J. H. Kelly, brigadier-general, commanding Cavalry Division
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Four Generals - is not "many."

And they paid a price. FYI, too, just for trivia, that last general on your list was a mere pup. All of 23 years old. That's how desperate they were. A Union bullet struck his chest, killing him, not long after....

One more add:

"To most Southerners, however, Cleburne's plan was appalling. The prospect of arming the slaves struck one division commander as "revolting to Southern sentiment, Southern pride, and Southern honor." A brigade commander suggested that accepting enslaved African Americans as soldiers would "contravene the principles upon which we fight." Sensing the potential for the debate to cause dangerous dissension within the ranks, Confederate President Jefferson Davis ordered the generals to cease the discussion. "

Black Confederates | Teachinghistory.org

But I do want to thank you for your contributions. Most assuredly. ;)
 
I just proved their where people in the south and north that wanted to gradually move from slavery..
 
Hatuey said:
Desperation is trying to make the confederacy seem like a group of people who really had no problem with blacks and would have generally welcomed them amongst their ranks.
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It funny, I never said that all the people would be thrilled I just pointed out their where people who did wany to gradually move away from slavery. It's human nature to have people in all groups to be averse to change. At least when it done gradually, we wouldn't have the problems with race today....

And also paper view, just because she was Irish doesn't mean they aren't from the south.
 
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