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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Their were plans being drawn up in the south by political leaders to move away from the slave trade as a economic solution. I have tried to find the link to the article I read that piece in, but it wouldn't have been far off the base to others in the south that slavery wasn't the ideal choice, if that solution was allowed to forum.
 
I'd rather have him speak for himself.

The South would have reached the conclusion that slavery needed to end and it would have ended it. It was inevitable. The South never had the chance to reach that conclusion for itself.
 
Their were plans being drawn up in the south by political leaders to move away from the slave trade as a economic solution. I have tried to find the link to the article I read that piece in, but it wouldn't have been far off the base to others in the south that slavery wasn't the ideal choice, if that solution was allowed to forum.

Exactly. While slavery was of course wrong ending it in the South was not the same as ending it in the North.
 
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Yeah........but in this context.....

In context it was indeed correct. There is no way in the world New England, which already dominated American shipping, was going to let lucrative American slave trade go a competitive region. And as you point out in an earlier post there really was no real American competition to speak of.
 
The South would have reached the conclusion that slavery needed to end and it would have ended it. It was inevitable. The South never had the chance to reach that conclusion for itself.

OK, you removed the contradiction in your original post, but the basic problem remains, the when of the South moving on to recognizing the equality of Blacks in the eyes of the law. The whole reason the South remained a slave system was based on the ideology of the inferiority of Blacks, the "natural order" of the superior Whites. When...or has....the South reduced the long standing racism so deeply ingrained and maintained in the conservative authoritarianism of White Southern culture?
 
Exactly. While slavery was of course wrong ending it in the South was not the same as ending it in the North.
Right, because large numbers of Northerners rejected the idea of the inferiority of Blacks as made manifest by the abolitionist movement.
 
OK, you removed the contradiction in your original post, but the basic problem remains, the when of the South moving on to recognizing the equality of Blacks in the eyes of the law. The whole reason the South remained a slave system was based on the ideology of the inferiority of Blacks, the "natural order" of the superior Whites. When...or has....the South reduced the long standing racism so deeply ingrained and maintained in the conservative authoritarianism of White Southern culture?

I don't agree with your premise.
 
Right, because large numbers of Northerners rejected the idea of the inferiority of Blacks as made manifest by the abolitionist movement.

You are late to the discussion. If you are interested in understanding my position up to this point I suggest you read the thread. I'm not going to catch you up to speed.
 
I don't agree with your premise.
The premise is spot on and made plain by the leaders of the Confederacy themselves, in their own words, they believed the natural order from gawd was that the White was superior. It is still a belief that runs strong because of its depth in the Southern ethos.
 
You are late to the discussion. If you are interested in understanding my position up to this point I suggest you read the thread. I'm not going to catch you up to speed.
You don't need to, I have seen it a number of times.
 
The premise is spot on and made plain by the leaders of the Confederacy themselves, in their own words, they believed the natural order from gawd was that the White was superior. It is still a belief that runs strong because of its depth in the Southern ethos.

Well then I can't help you, bud.
 
Ahhhh, the book. The Atlantic Slave Trade. Tonight I'll pour through it and try to find the specific data. I don't believe I bookmarked or underlined the information but, I'll locate it and pass it along.

Following is part of the data I have from The Atlantic Slave Trade by Joseph Inikori. Unfortunately the data is presented in narrative form. I highly recommend the book. I’ve enjoyed re-reading parts as I searched for this information. Inikori references some of his information to Elizabeth Donnan and her amazing and exhaustive work from 1930-31 and Jay Caughtry.

Using these data [slave ship registry and number of slaves per ship in Boston and “South Carolina” ports, Risky] and and data covered in Donnan 1930-35 and Coughtry in 1981 I analyzed ports in South Carolina, Massachusetts, Virginia, Georgia and voyages for Rhode Island merchants. Another complementary pattern was discovered. into Savannah, for example, North American merchants played a leading role as slave traders, importing 38.9% of the slaves in 45.8% of the ships between 1755 and 1767 (British merchants imported only 29.1% of the slaves.) North American merchants had a much smaller capacity: 15.1 slaves per ship compared to 116.0 slaves per British merchants.

——

In short, using total shipping tonnage and average ship size (tons) as measures, the data reveal that the pattern of New England involvement - its subordinate role when compared to Britain - was a result of colonial domination rather than of morality. British merchants dominated the more lucrative routes direct from Africa to large ports like South Carolina. Colonial merchants, especially New England merchants, were the leading traders on less lucrative long-distance routes like those routes between Africa and Savannah and the shuttle traffic between the West Indies and the southern colonies.

Source: The Atlantic Slave Trade: Effects on Economy by Joseph Inikori (pages 209, 210)
 
Well then I can't help you, bud.
My name isn't bud, and I wasn't looking for help from you, I never asked you for help. This is a debate forum, if you don't want to debate a claim you made, then you know what to do.
 
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The South would have reached the conclusion that slavery needed to end and it would have ended it. It was inevitable. The South never had the chance to reach that conclusion for itself.

That might have been true, but no one knows how long it would have taken to come to that conclusion. Decades at least. Same with the institutionalized racism following the Civil War. The South eventually had to join the civilized world, but how long should we have let nature and 'free markets' take their course? 20 more years, so into the 1980s?

And the other thing that bothers me about these arguments is they're almost invariably made by white people, usually white men, casually indifferent to the idea of another 20 or 40 years of slavery (in the 1800s) or institutionalized white supremacy (in the 1900s) for people not like them.
 
Ahhhh, the book. The Atlantic Slave Trade. Tonight I'll pour through it and try to find the specific data. I don't believe I bookmarked or underlined the information but, I'll locate it and pass it along.

I concede, Risky. You were right, aside from the British, most of the slave trade ships were made and operated by New Englanders, but it doesn't appear that it was sanctioned by the government or the people. Anyway, thank you for providing such good sources.
 
I concede, Risky. You were right, aside from the British, most of the slave trade ships were made and operated by New Englanders, but it doesn't appear that it was sanctioned by the government or the people. Anyway, thank you for providing such good sources.

Thanks, Moot but just like you I'm trying to learn. In terms of slavery the truth is damn near always ugly. It's ugly on both sides of the conflict and its ugly everywhere. I've read some of the information a while back. Debates here have given me a reason, sometimes a new reason, to return and read it again. That's been good for me. I often see in a different perspective and I learn again.

I do make every attempt to be objective. When I am expressing my opinion I think/hope I have not forwarded it as fact.

Thank you for the questions and the opportunity to research and re-read and re-assess.
 
That might have been true, but no one knows how long it would have taken to come to that conclusion. Decades at least.

We don't know. The South would have ended slavery. It was inevitable. Decades? I'd like to think not, but we don't know. There were so many variables the South faced that were much different from the North.

Same with the institutionalized racism following the Civil War.

Are you saying that institutionalized racism did not/ does not exist in the North?

The South eventually had to join the civilized world

I'm not certain that I understand that comment.

but how long should we have let nature and 'free markets' take their course? 20 more years, so into the 1980s?

Compared to where? The fully integrated North? I've traveled all over America, still do. I don't know that I've seen cities where African-Americans enjoy full equality in housing, employment and education. Where is it in America that African-Americans are not discriminated against? Where is it that no one is racist? Where is it that African-Americans in America aren't experiencing judicial prejudice that is tantamount to the second round of Jim Crow?

And the other thing that bothers me about these arguments is they're almost invariably made by white people, usually white men, casually indifferent to the idea of another 20 or 40 years of slavery (in the 1800s) or institutionalized white supremacy (in the 1900s) for people not like them.

That's a damned good question. I'm a pink American of Irish descent. I'm no sociologist. I'm sure there are reasons and I have a number of suspicions as to why but, I'm not qualified to answer for black people.

As "casually indifferent white men", again I am not certain as to your meaning. There are a number of researchers and authors and scholars who are in fact female. I find the work of Elizabeth Donnan astounding. Most of her research was conducted and published in the 1930s - before computers. The first time I encountered it I wondered what in the hell motivated her to conduct such exhaustive research and compile amazing data. She was a white woman. There are descendants of the DeWolf and Brown families who have committed much of their adult lives to philanthropy, research and publishing regarding slavery and the slave trade. It seems to me that the most prominent have been female. Anne Farrow, a white female journalist and author has written articles and two excellent books that I highly recommend. None of these authors appear to be flippant or "casually indifferent" to me, anything but.

Joseph Inikori, Ph.D. at the University of Rochester has author books and article about the slave trade and the economics of slavery. He is an African-American. I recommend reading Inikori. Certainly W.E.B DuBois, while not a contemporary authority, remains a major influence in the study of slavery and its affects. Of course there are more African-American scholars of slavery, but none come to mind. Of racism there are many African-American scholars and authors. Malcom X, Dr. Cornel West and economist Dr. Walter Williams come to mind.
 
We don't know. The South would have ended slavery. It was inevitable. Decades? I'd like to think not, but we don't know. There were so many variables the South faced that were much different from the North.

I guess I'm not sure what the point is of noting that slavery would have EVENTUALLY ended. Probably, but so what? Should we have waited on the "markets" to make slavery unsustainable? If not then what is the point?

Are you saying that institutionalized racism did not/ does not exist in the North?

You know I'm talking about segregation, Jim Crow, voting restrictions, etc. Don't play dumb.

And what laws existed or exist in the North that restrict the rights of blacks in the 1960s or the 2000s?

I'm not certain that I understand that comment.

And accept a system that wasn't an American apartheid system.

Compared to where? The fully integrated North? I've traveled all over America, still do. I don't know that I've seen cities where African-Americans enjoy full equality in housing, employment and education. Where is it in America that African-Americans are not discriminated against? Where is it that no one is racist? Where is it that African-Americans in America aren't experiencing judicial prejudice that is tantamount to the second round of Jim Crow?

See my previous comments. You're trying hard to miss the point.

That's a damned good question. I'm a pink American of Irish descent. I'm no sociologist. I'm sure there are reasons and I have a number of suspicions as to why but, I'm not qualified to answer for black people.

As "casually indifferent white men", again I am not certain as to your meaning.

No, you're white. There is no color designation of "pink." And read this again. You seem to have missed the point entirely by misreading and then misquoting the comment.

And the other thing that bothers me about these arguments is they're almost invariably made by white people, usually white men, casually indifferent to the idea of another 20 or 40 years of slavery (in the 1800s) or institutionalized white supremacy (in the 1900s) for people not like them.

When I hear someone, usually libertarian types, talk about how the markets would have eventually ended slavery, or that slavery would have eventually ended without the need for any force, or that lament the Big Government interceding in the South to end Jim Crow, those making that comment are almost always white men. And they are being casually indifferent TO another 20-40 years of slavery....etc.

There are a number of researchers and authors and scholars who are in fact female....

See above. I don't have a clue what you thought I said, but this list of researchers has nothing to do with what I actually wrote.
 
I guess I'm not sure what the point is of noting that slavery would have EVENTUALLY ended. Probably, but so what? Should we have waited on the "markets" to make slavery unsustainable? If not then what is the point?



You know I'm talking about segregation, Jim Crow, voting restrictions, etc. Don't play dumb.

And what laws existed or exist in the North that restrict the rights of blacks in the 1960s or the 2000s?



And accept a system that wasn't an American apartheid system.



See my previous comments. You're trying hard to miss the point.



No, you're white. There is no color designation of "pink." And read this again. You seem to have missed the point entirely by misreading and then misquoting the comment.



When I hear someone, usually libertarian types, talk about how the markets would have eventually ended slavery, or that slavery would have eventually ended without the need for any force, or that lament the Big Government interceding in the South to end Jim Crow, those making that comment are almost always white men. And they are being casually indifferent TO another 20-40 years of slavery....etc.



See above. I don't have a clue what you thought I said, but this list of researchers has nothing to do with what I actually wrote.

You mad, bro?

Your post was all over the place. Don't get all tight jawed with me because you are jumping from one century to another. I'm not certain where you are, but you are apparently driving to a point unknown to anyone else. I don't know what to tell you.
 
The premise is spot on and made plain by the leaders of the Confederacy themselves, in their own words, they believed the natural order from gawd was that the White was superior. It is still a belief that runs strong because of its depth in the Southern ethos.

Just like you are not bud, he is not gawd. Have the same respect.
 
Their were plans being drawn up in the south by political leaders to move away from the slave trade as a economic solution. I have tried to find the link to the article I read that piece in, but it wouldn't have been far off the base to others in the south that slavery wasn't the ideal choice, if that solution was allowed to forum.

I would *love* to see those "plans."

While you're busy looking it up, don't trip over the plans of Jeff Davis and crew to expand slavery into the territories, Cuba, Mexico, and Latin America.

They're right to the ones of them saying how slavery is a blessing, a "necessity" - and is ordained by Almighty God.
 
You mad, bro?

Your post was all over the place. Don't get all tight jawed with me because you are jumping from one century to another. I'm not certain where you are, but you are apparently driving to a point unknown to anyone else. I don't know what to tell you.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about so many of your past posts doing exactly that...
 
Just like you are not bud, he is not gawd. Have the same respect.

??

He was correct. The premise is spot on --

The Southern states said it over and over the "natural order" was of that of the superior Whites, as established by God -- it was in their documents, and expressed by their leaders.

"African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing."

"We recognize the negro as God and God's Book and God's Laws, in nature, tell us to recognize him—our inferior, fitted expressly for servitude ...You cannot transform the negro into anything one-tenth as useful or as good as what slavery enables them to be."
 
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