View Poll Results: Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?

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  • Democrats are seen as more rational on gun control

    4 40.00%
  • Republicans are seen as more rational on gun control

    6 60.00%
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Thread: Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?

  1. #21
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    Re: Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
    We don't.
    We do have more mass murders than any other developed country. We also have a higher homicide rate (especially for black people).

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
    Well a few reasons....

    Australia has a much smaller population which translates into far fewer firearms to begin with. Australia had no 2nd amendment guaranteeing them the right to firearms. You are trying to compare apples to kiwi.

    In Australia a 2014 Stabbing attack left 8 children aged 18 months to 15 years killed. A 37 year old woman also found injured. The woman was later charged with the murder of the children, 7 of whom were hers, plus her niece.

    8 children dead with a knife. Where there is a will there is a way.
    Woosh.

    I'm not comparing the US to Australia. I'm comparing Australia to itself, whereby it has seen a decrease in mass killings since passing the gun law. The graph specifically states that mass shootings are caused by crazy people. If that's the case, then the decrease in mass shootings since in Australia since 1996 can only mean that gun laws reduce the amount of crazy people in a country.

    (preemptive sidenote, before anyone points me towards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mass_murders as evidence that mass murders happen with the same frequency after the law was passed in 1996, note that the list there accounts for other causes such as arson after 1996, but only shootings before 1996, ignoring incidents like the Whiskey Au Go Go fire in Brisbane or "the Downunder Hostel fire in Sydney- It's a crappy source).

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
    Well please instead of making useless prophetic statements which get us no place. Please tell us what new laws will stop it?
    That's a great question. Specifically, I don't know. But here's a couple of areas where we can start. Laws that address:

    1) The systemic racism problem we face in America that ooh, say, ~50% of the population does not even acknowledge exists.
    2) A society that stigmatizes mental illness.
    3) A healthcare system that actively discourages preventative care, that leaves its users destitute and in debt.
    4) A corporatocracy that gives workers as little as humanly possible in jobs that take upwards of 40-70+ hrs a week of their lives.

    and maybe 5 could be something to do with gun control.

    Right now, people's answer to shootings like this is to blame it on crazy people. Often to move the conversation away from gun control. Unfortunately 'crazy people' simply doesn't cut it as an explanation when it is happening with frighteningly frequent occurrence. If we continue to refuse to discuss guns as a potential issue then lets at least move onto some of the other potential causes rather than just sweeping the whole thing under the rug as down to a few bad eggs. At this stage it's painfully clear that it's not just 'a few bad eggs' and our ignorance of this is quite literally proving fatal.

    Disclaimer on guns: Personally, I do believe that gun control would help the situation, but I also recognize that gun control is not a perfect solution, nor is it really pragmatic and feasible solution in the US.
    "Education is the only thing you can do that will change society. Everything else is just a band-aid." - Jacqueline de Chollet
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  2. #22
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    Re: Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    We do have more mass murders than any other developed country. We also have a higher homicide rate (especially for black people).
    Yes we do. When you have an oppressed minority these things tend to happen. If you look at the rates, only a few cities drive us up among the world's nations like Chicago and Detroit. Take away just those two and the US numbers drop drastically. If we drop the useless war on drugs it would drop even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Woosh.
    That is not true. Let me explain why below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    I'm not comparing the US to Australia. I'm comparing Australia to itself, whereby it has seen a decrease in mass killings since passing the gun law. The graph specifically states that mass shootings are caused by crazy people. If that's the case, then the decrease in mass shootings since in Australia since 1996 can only mean that gun laws reduce the amount of crazy people in a country.
    Again this is irrelevant for EXACTLY the reasons I stated.

    Also, as an aside, why did Australia see such a decline in mass shootings once they banned guns? Does banning guns also cause the number of mentally disturbed people who don't care about laws to drop? I don't know if gun control is the answer, but waving tragedies off as just being down to 'some whacko' is becoming a tiring rhetoric. We have a problem, and whatever the cause is, it's time to stop just putting this down to 'just another disturbed kook', letting the story fade into the background, and then the same thing happening again. - Nilly

    This is a direct comparison to the US. Otherwise it was unnecessary and does not apply in any way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    That's a great question. Specifically, I don't know. But here's a couple of areas where we can start. Laws that address:

    1) The systemic racism problem we face in America that ooh, say, ~50% of the population does not even acknowledge exists.
    2) A society that stigmatizes mental illness.
    3) A healthcare system that actively discourages preventative care, that leaves its users destitute and in debt.
    4) A corporatocracy that gives workers as little as humanly possible in jobs that take upwards of 40-70+ hrs a week of their lives.

    and maybe 5 could be something to do with gun control.

    Right now, people's answer to shootings like this is to blame it on crazy people. Often to move the conversation away from gun control. Unfortunately 'crazy people' simply doesn't cut it as an explanation when it is happening with frighteningly frequent occurrence. If we continue to refuse to discuss guns as a potential issue then lets at least move onto some of the other potential causes rather than just sweeping the whole thing under the rug as down to a few bad eggs. At this stage it's painfully clear that it's not just 'a few bad eggs' and our ignorance of this is quite literally proving fatal.

    Disclaimer on guns: Personally, I do believe that gun control would help the situation, but I also recognize that gun control is not a perfect solution, nor is it really pragmatic and feasible solution in the US.
    Gun control is not the solution Would 10 round magazines have stopped the 9 getting killed? No. Would a background check have stopped the father from giving the weapons to the son? No. Would a "gun free zone" have stopped him? Well no as it was a gun free zone.

    He was a crazy person given a gun by someone else. The first 4 things you mentioned would be a good start. The gun control thing is the real waste of everyone's time.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?

    I don't know about the rest of America, but here's how I see it.

    Liberals are more emotional about it. They see things like Sandy Hook happen, and they're outraged. They want to do something so badly, they don't necessarily stop to consider whether what they want to do is logical.
    Conservatives are more coldly logical about it. The 2nd amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, so the occasional shooting is part of "the cost of doing business". That doesn't mean it doesn't upset them, but they don't allow it to drive their thinking as much.

    Doesn't mean either side is right or wrong, just how I see the thinking going.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
    Yes we do. When you have an oppressed minority these things tend to happen. If you look at the rates, only a few cities drive us up among the world's nations like Chicago and Detroit. Take away just those two and the US numbers drop drastically. If we drop the useless war on drugs it would drop even more.



    That is not true. Let me explain why below.



    Again this is irrelevant for EXACTLY the reasons I stated.

    Also, as an aside, why did Australia see such a decline in mass shootings once they banned guns? Does banning guns also cause the number of mentally disturbed people who don't care about laws to drop? I don't know if gun control is the answer, but waving tragedies off as just being down to 'some whacko' is becoming a tiring rhetoric. We have a problem, and whatever the cause is, it's time to stop just putting this down to 'just another disturbed kook', letting the story fade into the background, and then the same thing happening again. - Nilly

    This is a direct comparison to the US. Otherwise it was unnecessary and does not apply in any way.




    Gun control is not the solution Would 10 round magazines have stopped the 9 getting killed? No. Would a background check have stopped the father from giving the weapons to the son? No. Would a "gun free zone" have stopped him? Well no as it was a gun free zone.

    He was a crazy person given a gun by someone else. The first 4 things you mentioned would be a good start. The gun control thing is the real waste of everyone's time.
    Ok you are clearly not getting my point. Did I bring up background checks or high capacity mags? I know my lean is progressive but I'm not here to argue for gun control. I know if all you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like nails but jeez.

    Mass murders are not simply because of crazy people.

    This is demonstrably true because in parts of the world we see decreases in mass murders when factors that have no effect on the amount of crazy people are put into place (such as Australias 1996 firearm law).

    To say that mass murders are just because some people are born crazy is to do a massive disservice to the issue at hand. We essentially wipe our hands clean of the issue, putting the cause (and thereby the solution) out of our hands. In reality mass murders are caused by a variety of issues, from illness to poverty to racism to access to guns. It's clear from other countries that things can be done to reduce the amount of mass murders a country has. If that were not the case, why do other countries have a lower rate of mass murders than the US? Protip: It is not because they have less crazy people than the US. It's because they run their countries in a way that make mass murders less likely by tackling a wide variety of issues.

    My problem, and my frustration (which I'm venting out on to you, probably unfairly) is based on the fact that even if we discount gun control from the debate entirely, we are still a big fat 0% of the way to addressing the other possible causes for mass shootings such as the one we just had. Many are quick to blame mental illness, but suggest reform to our healthcare system??? No no no, far too expensive, let the free market sort it out. A large proportion of Americans (even many of the smart ones) can't even acknowledge that a racism problem exists at all in our country (even though the state where the shooting happened, SC, still adulates racism/racists). And whole swathes can't seem to be able to acknowledge that while we live in supposedly the most advanced country in the world, the majority of our people are overstressed, overworked and underpaid.

    If gun control isn't the answer, then lets at least get started on fixing the other issues that could y'know, maybe have an affect on why our country is filled with so much more hatred/apathy than any other developed nation. Just sitting back, calling it mental illness and being done with it is not the answer.
    Last edited by Nilly; 06-20-15 at 05:30 AM.
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    "Anytime anyone has waged a war on human science, science has won." - David Rothkopf

  5. #25
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    Re: Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Trusting loaded polls is never a good idea. Are you claiming the outcry from constituents played no role whatsoever?
    I'm saying the money & power of the special interest puppeteers, that control their Congressional puppets, often exceeds the will of the people. Not always; not absolutely; but often enough. Too often. (I would submit even once, is too much - I find it difficult to believe our forefathers designed a system of government for sale to the highest bidder)
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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