View Poll Results: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

Voters
44. You may not vote on this poll
  • If it's cheaper to the taxpayer, I would support providing apartments for the homeless.

    29 65.91%
  • I would not support providing apartments to the homeless even if it is cheaper to the taxpayer.

    15 34.09%
Page 8 of 26 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 259

Thread: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

  1. #71
    Anti-Hypocrite
    molten_dragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southeast Michigan
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    9,078

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    It seems like a decent deal, as long as the accommodations are made so basic that people aren't deciding "screw paying rent, I'll just get kicked out, be homeless, and get a free apartment".
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  2. #72
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    17,916

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    If they're spending less money then social services should have a smaller budget.

    If goes down to 1 buck a gallon from three, you should be spending 66% less on fuel

    Same principal, if not as many homeless people are being dealt with by law enforcement we need fewer corrections officers and jail expenses like food or the such.

    The reality is it doesn't save us money otherwise, like years ago when the state of Washington claimed mandatory helmets for motorcycles would cut Medicaid costs and the indoor smoking ban would cut Medicaid costs, but Medicaid expenditures continue to rise
    I understand your point, but the fact that prison expenses didn't go down after a relative handful of homeless were provided housing doesn't tell us a thing unless we know all the other factors that affect the prison population and how they've changed. What could be a success is, for example, a rate of growth of 6% versus 7% or whatever. Or it might be a new prison isn't needed. And if 100 kids didn't spend a week in the hospital after severe head injuries, but Seattle added 10,000 diabetics to the rolls, that Medicaid costs still went up shouldn't be a surprise and that total costs increased doesn't show that the 100 fewer weeks in ICU from motorcycle accidents didn't save any money.

  3. #73
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    17,916

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    It would be far cheaper, and better for the economy overall, for the homeless that were able bodied and mentally healthy to clean themselves up and use whatever opportunities are available to not be homeless anymore.
    I've been involved for years with a charity that takes on the homeless, about half of them veterans. In our experience, almost all of the long term homeless have mental or physical issues, from PTSD to schizophrenia and several other diagnosable mental health issues that require medication to control. Those that aren't mentally ill are almost all addicted to drugs or alcohol or both. Dual diagnoses are the norm - percentages vary but clearly the majority are both mentally ill and addicted, with drugs and alcohol how the homeless "treat" their mental illness. And living on the streets means that when they come in most of them have lousy health.

    So the "mentally healthy" share of the long term homeless is very, very small. Lots of them can become healthy, but it takes a lot of time, and getting them off the street is the first necessary step. When they come in our doors we expect them to remain for a minimum of six months - that's what is required to have any chance of long term success in the 'real world.' They have to pay 'rent' which they do by working or with disability, VA payments or some other source of money. If they can't work a job, they're required to do work at the charity - maintenance and so on. We give them clothes, teach them to interview, fill out job applications, cook a meal. It's a process and expecting them to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps sounds nice, but is doomed to fail.

    Our charity doesn't take the "housing first" approach (they have to remain sober), but I'm all for it if it works. We're a pretty conservative place, but the city did a long term study, in concert with a lot of orgs that deal with the homeless and one part of the recommendations was long term housing. It's been stalled mainly because the city can't find locations to put them - they identified a bunch of old apartment complexes, but the locals (understandably really) don't want them housed in THEIR back yard....

    The bottom line is dealing with these people will take a lot of manpower and money. The traditional approach is to let the cops deal with them and provide them "free housing" and food and healthcare in prison which is a very expensive way to provide those services. Akin to providing routine medical care at the ER because the patient can't afford an actual doctor. As a general principle, I'd rather replace cops and jails with social workers and mental health professionals and house them in apartments. The latter approach has a chance at actually working to get some of these folks back on their feet.

  4. #74
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    17,916

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Because we are a nation of free individuals. If you prefer a nation where the citizens are devoid of rights of their own and must bow to the needs of the Motherland or the Fatherland, I am sure there are places out there that can accommodate you.

    Christianity is based upon charity and voluntary giving. What you advocate is state imposed humanitarian/moral duty. Any Christian who supports that, doesn't understand their own religion.
    Give me a break. That's only your opinion.

    If we're going to play this game, though, how about Christian charities rise up and house all these homeless and then the "State" wouldn't have anyone else to deal with, they'd all have housing provided by Christian charities. I work with one of them, and we can house 150 people at any one time, and we always have a waiting list of several hundred - could be 1,000 easy enough but no point keeping a list that long. And we get homeless throughout the region, because most regions have ZERO facilities to deal with the chronic homeless and addicted who can't afford a $12,000/month treatment facility. The fact is there aren't enough faith based orgs to even begin to deal with all the homeless in our expanded area.

    So if you're telling me the moral thing to do in this situation is to say screw the homeless, let them rot on the streets, until the faith based voluntary!!! charities emerge, I'd say it's you who doesn't understand their religion, which is also MY opinion.

  5. #75
    Sage
    Fletch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mentor Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    12,584

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Give me a break. That's only your opinion.

    If we're going to play this game, though, how about Christian charities rise up and house all these homeless and then the "State" wouldn't have anyone else to deal with, they'd all have housing provided by Christian charities. I work with one of them, and we can house 150 people at any one time, and we always have a waiting list of several hundred - could be 1,000 easy enough but no point keeping a list that long. And we get homeless throughout the region, because most regions have ZERO facilities to deal with the chronic homeless and addicted who can't afford a $12,000/month treatment facility. The fact is there aren't enough faith based orgs to even begin to deal with all the homeless in our expanded area.

    So if you're telling me the moral thing to do in this situation is to say screw the homeless, let them rot on the streets, until the faith based voluntary!!! charities emerge, I'd say it's you who doesn't understand their religion, which is also MY opinion.
    I am not obligated to help these people and neither are you. You are free to do so and so am I. Except that isn't good enough for liberals. They want to help these people but not with their own money. They want to take it from others. And look at the results. The left has gotten its theft schemes enacted and there are still more homeless than you can count. Just as much poverty as ever. And $18,000,000,000,000 worth of debt. So what do you want? More of the same. No thanks.

  6. #76
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    17,916

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    I am not obligated to help these people and neither are you. You are free to do so and so am I. Except that isn't good enough for liberals. They want to help these people but not with their own money. They want to take it from others. And look at the results. The left has gotten its theft schemes enacted and there are still more homeless than you can count. Just as much poverty as ever. And $18,000,000,000,000 worth of debt. So what do you want? More of the same. No thanks.
    OK, so the Christian thing is to let the homeless rot on the streets. Just wanted to clear that up. Thanks!

    Yes, AN option is to turn your head and pretend these folks don't exist and say "f' you, leave me alone" to those you can't ignore, but I don't see how that is moral or ethical. And in the real world faith based charities haven't stepped up and solved actually ANY big problem in America. So I'm not sure what your proposal is, except to continue to ignore these folks, or know that charities are overwhelmed and say, well, life sucks for those who fall through the cracks, good luck in the next life!

    BTW, I don't know who "they" are but I'm a taxpayer like you, I volunteer my time, for years, to help these people and we donate our money to that charity and many others in the area - the food banks and other faith based on non-faith based orgs who help out. So if you want to whine about people not walking the walk or expecting others to do what I'm not, you'll have to find someone else to bitch to. And in the meantime, please tell us all your efforts as a Christian to help out and then tell me why more of those like you haven't stepped up and founded charities, since you want the state to play no role....

  7. #77
    Sage
    countryboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    14,910

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, so the Christian thing is to let the homeless rot on the streets. Just wanted to clear that up. Thanks!

    Yes, AN option is to turn your head and pretend these folks don't exist and say "f' you, leave me alone" to those you can't ignore, but I don't see how that is moral or ethical. And in the real world faith based charities haven't stepped up and solved actually ANY big problem in America. So I'm not sure what your proposal is, except to continue to ignore these folks, or know that charities are overwhelmed and say, well, life sucks for those who fall through the cracks, good luck in the next life!

    BTW, I don't know who "they" are but I'm a taxpayer like you, I volunteer my time, for years, to help these people and we donate our money to that charity and many others in the area - the food banks and other faith based on non-faith based orgs who help out. So if you want to whine about people not walking the walk or expecting others to do what I'm not, you'll have to find someone else to bitch to. And in the meantime, please tell us all your efforts as a Christian to help out and then tell me why more of those like you haven't stepped up and founded charities, since you want the state to play no role....
    No, actually Christians help the homeless all the time, with our own money. That's the point. But you already knew that.

    There are myriad charities founded by Christians. Why must libs always lie and exaggerate to make a point?

  8. #78
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    17,916

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    No, actually Christians help the homeless all the time, with our own money. That's the point. But you already knew that.

    There are myriad charities founded by Christians. Why must libs always lie and exaggerate to make a point?
    Of course, AS I SAID, I have been personally involved with one of them for years, and I donate to many others.

    The point is the Christian and other charities are not enough. As I pointed out, our waiting list is hundreds long and it could be longer if there was a point taking a name that won't be crossed off for two years or more.

    So, given that there just are not the resources available to serve these folks, what do you suggest? We could all wish more charities existed and they were enough, but that's not actually going to help anyone who needs help, and there are many.

    BTW, it's of course possible to favor multiple strategies. I support the efforts of our faith based charity, AND a public role. There really isn't any conflict because I know there just in reality aren't enough charities to serve the population, so as a rational individual, also support the city's efforts as a necessary complement to the food banks, Salvation Army, and other charitable orgs that are doing great work but are simply overwhelmed by the need. Heck, we have to use public resources to treat our residents' medical issues - i.e. the ER, Medicaid, VA and more. We simply cannot afford to feed, house, address addiction AND treat their often serious and chronic medical issues, including mental health issues. It requires multiple approaches from multiple orgs, including public (taxpayer funded) orgs.

    Or, you can accept failure, and whine about liberals.

  9. #79
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    17,916

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    No, actually Christians help the homeless all the time, with our own money. That's the point. But you already knew that.

    There are myriad charities founded by Christians. Why must libs always lie and exaggerate to make a point?
    BTW, the comment I responded to was that neither he nor I is "obligated" to help. As an ethical issue, I think we ARE obligated to help. We can't individually address every moral or ethical issue - there isn't enough time or money to do that - but that doesn't give us permission to ignore the problem either. That's why I do support public efforts. If we left all this up to charity, knowing millions would fall through the cracks, IMO we are not behaving morally or ethically.

    One other point, in this reality, the actual approach given the failures of charities and public efforts is to provide free medical care, housing, food in regular stays funded by taxpayers in jails and prisons. That is the default, keep on the current road, approach. I can't support that on any level - fiscally, ethically, or on what can be expected to work to turn these lives around.
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-09-15 at 10:21 AM.

  10. #80
    Sage
    countryboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    14,910

    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    BTW, the comment I responded to was that neither he nor I is "obligated" to help. As an ethical issue, I think we ARE obligated to help. We can't individually address every moral or ethical issue - there isn't enough time or money to do that - but that doesn't give us permission to ignore the problem either. That's why I do support public efforts. If we left all this up to charity, knowing millions would fall through the cracks, IMO we are not behaving morally or ethically.

    One other point, in this reality, the actual approach given the failures of charities and public efforts is to provide free medical care, housing, food in regular stays funded by taxpayers in jails and prisons. That is the default, keep on the current road, approach. I can't support that on any level - fiscally, ethically, or on what can be expected to work to turn these lives around.
    Liberty comes with a price. He's right, we aren't obligated to help the homeless. And you have no right to force others to do as you wish at the point of a gun.

    One other point, why do you find it necessary to use idiotic comments like, "OK, so the Christian thing is to let the homeless rot on the streets. Just wanted to clear that up. Thanks!"?

Page 8 of 26 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •