View Poll Results: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

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  • If it's cheaper to the taxpayer, I would support providing apartments for the homeless.

    29 65.91%
  • I would not support providing apartments to the homeless even if it is cheaper to the taxpayer.

    15 34.09%
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Thread: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

  1. #191
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Not a bit. I know you haven't read all the posts, but I make that very point. We ALL fund stuff we don't like. I accept that as the cost of living in a diverse, first world, representative democracy, and think it's well worth it.
    Okay, fair enough. I don't agree with you but at least you are being fair about it.

    BTW, I am not necessarily against providing shelter for the homeless, just not full blown apartments. I thought the shipping container shelters someone posted earlier looked like a viable alternative. Heck, some people who aren't homeless are living in those things and other small domiciles to minimize living expenses. I believe there's a whole "micro-shelter" or some such movement. It's not a bad idea if you don't require a lot of space.

  2. #192
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Ok. Realistically, what would be some of the downsides and/or challenges that would come up?
    Realistically, almost anything you can think of. I could write a book on the downsides and/or challenges. But the point is, those downsides and challenges don't go away if they're out on the streets 24/7 - if anything, the public is a heck of a lot more affected. If you're a store owner, what would you think if every single morning you have to move the homeless away from your storefront because you've got an awning that protects them from the rain? Not to mention the human waste (natural and litter) that they leave strewn about, which absolutely has an effect on your ability to attract customers. You know you can call the cops on them, but the very next day, even the next few hours, there they are again. How much does this kind of problem cost business owners? LOTS...and that's before we get to the problems of mental disorders, unidentified sex predators, addiction, and addiction-related crime.

    But if they are housed, then they aren't out on the street ruining your business, are they? At least not nearly so much. Not only does the taxpayer save money on less of a police presence, less court and lawyer costs, less prison costs, and less ER costs, but the business climate becomes more welcoming...and that's nothing but good for business.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Okay, fair enough. I don't agree with you but at least you are being fair about it.

    BTW, I am not necessarily against providing shelter for the homeless, just not full blown apartments. I thought the shipping container shelters someone posted earlier looked like a viable alternative. Heck, some people who aren't homeless are living in those things and other small domiciles to minimize living expenses. I believe there's a whole "micro-shelter" or some such movement. It's not a bad idea if you don't require a lot of space.
    And I'm not opposed to micro-shelters, as long as they are secure and provide sanitary facilities so that the individual has the opportunity to clean up and keep their clothes in a condition that they can get and keep a job.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  4. #194
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Again with the false narratives. You just can't help yourself, can you?
    Hm. Let me see here. You posted, "Since when has government solved any problem completely? What makes you think it will be different in this case?"...which is clearly a false narrative itself. But instead, it's you accusing me of such.
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    I would, but I see it as a band-aid solution. A disproportionate percentage of people who are chronically homeless suffer from mental illness or some type of drug addiction or substance abuse problem. These issues need to be addressed, and throwing people in public housing is not an adequate solution to resolving them.

    As to people who are homeless for a brief period, often the cause is bad economic policy. Others may be pushed into streets due to rents rising beyond what is affordable, which is often a function of bad housing and development policy.

    Sure, putting homeless individuals in apartments is better than doing nothing. But if we throw them in apartments and then turn a blind eye to the above issues, we aren't solving anything.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Okay, fair enough. I don't agree with you but at least you are being fair about it.

    BTW, I am not necessarily against providing shelter for the homeless, just not full blown apartments. I thought the shipping container shelters someone posted earlier looked like a viable alternative. Heck, some people who aren't homeless are living in those things and other small domiciles to minimize living expenses. I believe there's a whole "micro-shelter" or some such movement. It's not a bad idea if you don't require a lot of space.
    FWIW, I went to the study, and they were provided one bedroom "efficiency" apartment, which I understand has a separate bathroom. Each person has his own apartment. One online site said an "efficiency" is less than 350sq ft, but I didn't see that in the study itself. Based on some comments, they get a small frig, and maybe a microwave, but there is no kitchen. Looks like another charity fed them for the most part.

    Other observations - 88% homeless 3+ years and about 40% 6+ years.

    They defined 5 disabling conditions - physical disability, HIV, other chronic illness, substance abuse, mental illness. About 2/3 were chronically ill, 2/3 substance abuse, 2/3 mental illness. 1/3 had a physical disability. 100% had at least one condition, 75% had two of those 5 conditions and 40% had 3 of those.

    Substance use was a less than I expected. Just a few days per month on average (mean) for drugs (about 4 days/mo, SD 16 which is high). So many used not at all it looks like, and some probably used drugs every day. Alcohol use to "intoxication" was mean 4 days/mo, SD 8, so less than drugs.

    Only surprise is this place is intended to be indefinite. If a tenant stayed at the place for the 3 years of the study, that was a success. I'd have thought the goal was to get them into self supported living, but apparently for these folks that wasn't seen as a reasonable goal.

    One part of the cost savings is a bit fishy - they used hospital billing, before and after, and that's an inflated number as they point out in the study. No insurer, anyway, pays the sticker. But the number of days hospitalized, billing, 911 calls, ER visits, etc were all WAY down. So the medical savings are real, just not as big as the study reports.

    Anyway, link here: Housing for Homeless in Charlotte, NC | Volunteer Opportunities

    The link to pdf is on that page. Pretty interesting although I just skimmed it.
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-09-15 at 11:47 PM.

  7. #197
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    No I do not support providing apartments for the homeless through taxpayer dollars.

    I do however, am a strong believer in local and state governments working with local charities to provide shelter for those in need. Shelters staffed with folks that can help those who truly want to find work, an addict who wants to come clean, or anyone else who needs a helping hand in picking up the pieces and starting over.

    Folks need to stop looking to Mama government for solutions to all problems. Things like homelessness need to be addressed locally. It takes folks that are willing to give of themselves in the communities in which they live to make a difference.
    So what does that mean? It either means you have some type of Polyanna view that a government can call up a local church to take care of the problem, leaving it up to the goodwill of that churches members to pay the freight OR you are talking about a real private-public partnership, a faith-based initiative, where the church runs the program but the government pays (with taxes)...

    So, tell us, are you advocating you want someone else to make this not a problem for you or are you actually willing to share in the solution?

  8. #198
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I said feed them and house them. I said keep them warm, make sure they have water and blankets.

    Those are the necessities of life. For much of human history just having dependable shelter, clean water and a reliable source of food was a struggle for most of humanity... it STILL is, half the people on the "bottom billion" in the world today would kill to get that deal. I mean damn have you ever seen what a slum in Africa looks like? Horrors beyond horrors....

    This covers the basic necessities of life adequately, and I'm saying fine, give it to 'em for free and bill me on my taxes.



    So why are you making me out to be Scrooge here? Because I'm not advocating giving them a nice house with all the amenities for nothing? Steak dinners every Thursday no charge? Big screen TV and broadband internet and cable no charge? what exactly do you expect here?
    You said "feed them and house them" behind fences and keep them away from the public.... you know, a prison. Obviously your reference made me think of scrooge. It certainly doesn't make me think of Christ. Speaking of which, Matthew 25: 42-45 gives us some guidance here...

    for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    So, by extension, this is the type of housing you propose for Christ on his return?

    As to the slums of Africa, that is a silly comparison. It would be like comparing our healthcare to the healthcare of Africa. Central Africa is not a part of our peer group. We are suppose be a first world country; you don't compare us to a third world country and say "see how good you have it". In that regard, I have traveled reasonably extensively to other first world countries in the Americas, Europe and Asia. You do not see the signs of abject poverty in other first world countries that you see in the United States.

  9. #199
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    You said "feed them and house them" behind fences and keep them away from the public.... you know, a prison. Obviously your reference made me think of scrooge. It certainly doesn't make me think of Christ. Speaking of which, Matthew 25: 42-45 gives us some guidance here...

    for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    So, by extension, this is the type of housing you propose for Christ on his return?

    As to the slums of Africa, that is a silly comparison. It would be like comparing our healthcare to the healthcare of Africa. Central Africa is not a part of our peer group. We are suppose be a first world country; you don't compare us to a third world country and say "see how good you have it". In that regard, I have traveled reasonably extensively to other first world countries in the Americas, Europe and Asia. You do not see the signs of abject poverty in other first world countries that you see in the United States.


    Holey flaming succotash, Batman... what exactly do you WANT? Shall we pay to house them in $100k condos with all the amenities and steak dinners?

    How are we going to pay for that again? Given that our budget is already nearly half deficit.

    And where is the incentive to get a job and be self-supporting? Heck let me hurry and be homeless so **I** can get a free 100k condo with all the amenities and free steak dinners too! Screw working!



    And I love this criticism you're leveling. You don't know me.


    You know WHY you don't know what I've done for the poor and downtrodden? Because I normally don't talk about it much, because I don't want to brag. God knows and that's enough for me.


    But not for you I guess... ok then...


    I've actually reallio trulio spent time with the homeless. I've gotten some of them jobs. I've talked to many about how they became homeless and what if anything I could do to help them get on their feet. I've given them food and money, directed them to shelters and aid orgs, and sometimes just provided a willing ear to hear their troubles.

    BTW, most of them aren't simply "average people lacking jobs and money". For the majority, you can't just "add money and job" and they'll be fine... most have addictions and/or psychological problems, or just plain would rather be homeless than work a job.

    I've got a woman and her two kids in my house right now, been here for most of a year since she ran away from her abusive druggie ex. He doesn't come around here because he knows me and he knows better. She doesn't bring in much money so my dependents went from 1 to 4 all the sudden, and I'm not exactly well-off. Lucky me. Oh well it needed done.




    That's not the half, but it is all I'm telling here. So, bud, you can take your unjustified self-righteous dander, fold it until it is all sharp corners, and stick it somewhere uncomfortable.
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-10-15 at 03:16 PM.

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  10. #200
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    So what does that mean? It either means you have some type of Polyanna view that a government can call up a local church to take care of the problem, leaving it up to the goodwill of that churches members to pay the freight OR you are talking about a real private-public partnership, a faith-based initiative, where the church runs the program but the government pays (with taxes)...

    So, tell us, are you advocating you want someone else to make this not a problem for you or are you actually willing to share in the solution?
    The only thing the local governments would be involved in is directing people in need to the charities that could help them. In my community most of the churches pull together and give a percentage of their tithes and offerings to help those in need in the area. For example the Lutheran church operates the food pantry out of their church where one can go three times a week for goods. The food is stocked with money from all the churches. Several churches own homes that were willed to them that they use to house those who are temporarily without shelter. They are also used to house missionaries upon return from their missions until they can settle in their own places. Business men/women who are members of these churches are involved in helping those who are out of work find a job. There are doctors, dentists, nurses in these congregations that dedicate time to free clinics for those who have no way to pay or will see someone in need in their private practice. The churches with their pulled funds will help the one who can't pay the electric bill or their house payment due to a crisis. Or if a person has no way to get to work because of a broken down car they help with the repairs. There are those who minister to drug addicts others to battered women etc. There are drives for clothing and household goods. But there is a significant number of homeless who choose to be homeless. They want to live under bridges, beg for money, and pick through trash. There's little you can do for them other than drop off blankets, coats, food etc. where they will find them.

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