View Poll Results: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

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  • If it's cheaper to the taxpayer, I would support providing apartments for the homeless.

    29 65.91%
  • I would not support providing apartments to the homeless even if it is cheaper to the taxpayer.

    15 34.09%
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Thread: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

  1. #141
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by logansrun View Post
    And if you put him in an apartment the odds are pretty good he will steal from his neighbors to fund the things other than rent by the same argument. It comes across like you are trying to extort money: Either pay us so we make sure he steals from someone other than you or he will steal from you instead. A thief is a thief. Put him in jail or a rehab facility against his will. Negotiating with addicts is codependency.
    No, it's not extortion, I'm just pointing out that a junkie on the streets costs us all a lot of money. If he steals and is caught, you provide free housing, 3 meals a day, TV, healthcare in jail, and he comes out and usually starts using again, with a record, even harder to get a job, and so steals again. IMO, if it is cheaper and works better to provide free housing in an apartment instead of jail, I'll gladly support that effort. It's just a function of what works.

    I would not consider a 10% success rate a success. As I suggested earlier, there are some types of homelessness I would support paying for their aid. There are other types I would not because I do not think that the odds favor them changing just because they have a free roof over their heads.
    10% a success depends on the alternative. If that 10% is an avoided AIDS case or Hep C or whatever, and a lifetime of expensive medical care, and those cases in effect pay for the others who fail, no problem with me.

    We just apply different standards to who should receive aid, which is understandable. I don't much care why they're homeless, only what works best and is better for them and society in the long run. Some here think the potential for abuse is high and maybe they're right. If so the programs long term might be a failure. All I have to go on are the studies to date, which are of mostly pilot programs, and certainly are only open to a small slice of the total homeless population. Perhaps these programs will work for only a small slice of that population. We know our little charity doesn't work for many because to stay they do have to follow some basic rules - look for work, cook, clean, stay sober, get treatment. Theft is permanent dismissal with no chance of return. Getting high gets you kicked out, but when sober can return. Etc. Those are our rules, but if different rules work better, OK.

  2. #142
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's because people working minimum wage jobs and trying to support families are idiots. If you cannot afford a family, you have no business trying to have one.
    And that's one of the big problems with conservatives. Instead of saying, okay, let's fix the problem because it IS a problem, conservatives LOVE to say, "well, harumph, they shouldn't a-had a family to begin with!" Well, GUESS WHAT, guy, they DO have families that they DO need to support and the minimum wage job is ALL they can get...

    ...it's not a matter of "well, ya shouldn't a-done that!" It's a matter of, it DOES happen, it IS a problem and it will always BE a problem. You can either do something about it...or you can hide your head in the sand.

    Another great example of this same kind of idiocy is in teen pregnancy. Liberals say, okay, kids are gonna do the nasty, let's educate them and tell them about birth control. Conservatives, on the other hand, say that "oh, y'all shouldn't oughta do that! Just say no until marriage!" And as a result, between red and blue states, guess which states have the highest rates of teenage pregnancy, hm?

    These are problems that don't go away just because conservatives say that people shouldn't do this or that.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And my point was, are you willing to pay more for police, courts, lawyers, prisons, ER's for what happens because homeless people are on the streets 24/7...even though it has been shown in several studies that it really is cheaper for the taxpayer to pay for apartments for them?

    You're going to pay more for one, or less for the other. If you insist that nothing at all be done for the homeless, then the costs of the police, courts, lawyers, prisons, and ER's automatically goes up...and you'll be paying for that.

    You pay for one or for the other...but you will pay. Which one is in the best interests of the taxpayers?
    Your premise presumes that we put them in apartments, all issues are solved, everybody lives happily ever after, and it ends there.
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  4. #144
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And instead of examining how it worked out in real life, you're making a claim based on...what? Oh, yeah, your ASSUMPTIONS.
    Link is broken for me.

  5. #145
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    How much cheaper would it be if they weren't being warehoused and had jobs instead?
    I'd love for them to have jobs! Of course I would! So take a look at that homeless person with that shopping cart. How exactly is he going to get a bath, get cleaned up, shaved, brush his teeth, get his clothes clean and pressed (assuming he has any clothes appropriate for the job), and get to work...and just as importantly, how's he going to do that day after day? It's not like he has a place to keep his clothes neat and clean until the next day.

    This, btw, is one of the things that paying for apartments for the homeless does - it makes it easier for them to get and keep jobs.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  6. #146
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And that's one of the big problems with conservatives. Instead of saying, okay, let's fix the problem because it IS a problem, conservatives LOVE to say, "well, harumph, they shouldn't a-had a family to begin with!" Well, GUESS WHAT, guy, they DO have families that they DO need to support and the minimum wage job is ALL they can get...

    ...it's not a matter of "well, ya shouldn't a-done that!" It's a matter of, it DOES happen, it IS a problem and it will always BE a problem. You can either do something about it...or you can hide your head in the sand.

    Another great example of this same kind of idiocy is in teen pregnancy. Liberals say, okay, kids are gonna do the nasty, let's educate them and tell them about birth control. Conservatives, on the other hand, say that "oh, y'all shouldn't oughta do that! Just say no until marriage!" And as a result, between red and blue states, guess which states have the highest rates of teenage pregnancy, hm?

    These are problems that don't go away just because conservatives say that people shouldn't do this or that.
    And this is a fair point. It does exist, people do have families they shouldn't have, and so on. And these things should be addressed.

    However, there is some legitimacy to the flip side, as well. If the consequences are known to be harsh, more people won't make irresponsible decisions to begin with. There will always be some, but the numbers will be fewer.

    Where's the happy medium?
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  7. #147
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Meh. Give 'em a 6x10' hut each with a futon, toilet and sink. No electricity, no comms, no A/C, but some kind of heat in the winter sure. Stack 'em ten stories high in a fenced complex and try to keep 'em away from the regular folks somewhat.

    Give 'em a block of generic nutrient paste every day that will keep starvation at bay, a bar of soap once a month, and a couple blankets.


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  8. #148
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    So you're willing to have them remain as a permanent underclass. I have higher hopes for them, but the first step is for those who are homeless to not be okay with being homeless anymore. "Free" apartments won't provide that motivation. Not sure why you think it would be such a good idea to just warehouse people.
    Ah. So people are homeless because they CHOOSE to be homeless! What a brilliant observation! Why, I bet if I went down the street over in Seattle and asked, each and every one of them will say, "well, I'm okay with being homeless!"

    But if you did something completely different and went and asked the homeless - or, failing that, ask those who work with the homeless every day - you'll find out that there's a whole passel of reasons people become homeless...and "lack of motivation" isn't usually one of them. You'll find that people who are homeless are often there because of addiction, yes. But there's a lot more out there who fled abusive homes, or who lost their jobs and couldn't pay for a place to stay, or who was bankrupted by medical costs.

    It's so easy to look at someone on the streets and make assumptions about them. It's a lot harder to actually find out why they're there.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  9. #149
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    What makes you think that these apartments wouldn't require additional police presence, the courts wouldn't have to be just as involved and the same people wouldn't go to prison? You think that giving people apartments is going to magically change their anti-social behavior?
    And the real-life experiences where this was tried showed that crime went down, costs went down. Research it yourself before making assumptions, willya?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #150
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Some do, but you might *GASP* have to hear about Jesus. Can't have that. It would be much better to soak the American tax payer, again.

    American Rescue Workers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    And guess what, guy - with all the thousands of "Christian" churches in America, we still have a severe homelessness problem. Even in the deepest parts of the Bible Belt where I come from, there's still lots of homeless.

    Sorry, but charity only goes so far. It's nice to think that charity can solve it...but in real life, no. Never has, not in all human history.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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