View Poll Results: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

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  • If it's cheaper to the taxpayer, I would support providing apartments for the homeless.

    29 65.91%
  • I would not support providing apartments to the homeless even if it is cheaper to the taxpayer.

    15 34.09%
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Thread: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

  1. #131
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, I'm asking where this supposed savings is that people are claiming exists. If you can't demonstrate it, it doesn't exist. If you're spending exactly the same money on everything else, plus $20k for each apartment, that's not savings, that's losing money.
    What I've read is the homeless that they have housed are spending way less time in emergency rooms and jails.

    How Housing for the Chronically Homeless May Save Taxpayers Money | Fox Business
    “We’ve found that chronically homeless people, who are about 12% of the homeless population, make up 80% of the total government costs spent, from emergency room visits to jail time…. We are wasting a huge amount of money in this country keeping these people homeless,”
    Trump is so good at eliminating government waste, he's shortened POTUS to POS. Thanks, Trump!

  2. #132
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    No that's too cruel. We cant expect our homeless to live like some lowly private. They need a place of their own, with three meals a day, a tv, internet, job training, transportation, leisure time, and a wardrobe that wont stigmatize them. You know, all those things that the rest of us actually have to get up every morning and bust our asses to achieve...
    Well, the question is what works and what is most cost effective. The general attitude of conservatives appears to be that there is a moral imperative that they live poorly, even if that costs more and doesn't work to get them off the streets long term or that other options like an apartment work better and is cheaper in the long run.

    And just one problem with the barracks type living arrangements is that they are very unsafe, especially for women and children, but many of the homeless I've known hated staying there because it was a good place to have what little stuff you had stolen, beaten up in the night. So the reason advocates reject that type arrangement isn't to spend more money but because it's been proven to not work. In our facility, for example, we could strip out the walls and house perhaps 20 men per house. Instead we have about 30 houses because having a room with one roommate or sometimes two works better than a dorm.

    FWIW, I've known some homeless in government subsidized housing. I'm sure none of us would trade places with them, "free" housing or not. It's the reward of getting up and busting our asses.

  3. #133
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Not jailing people is always cheaper. Police shooting sed offenders instead of arresting them is cheaper, should we do that too?

    Principle sometimes costs money.

    I'm willing to give homeless people housing but it won't be free, it will be a structured existence like military recruit training and doing hard physical labor like pulling scotch broom from clearcuts in the national forest.

    Ill gladly pay taxes to make them better themselves, I will even support feeding them steak, they'll need to protein for the work I have in mind, but I will not pay another nickel so they can sit in a pad and smoke pot. Seriously I work in seattle and would love to live closer to work, I make over twice the minimum wage and I can't afford to live in the city, where's my free pad? I actually contribute to society
    Fine - if you want to include a certain amount of menial work as a requirement for them to stay there to earn their keep, I'm fine with that. My goal here isn't to give people a chance to sit on their butts and do nothing to earn their keep - my goal here is to cost the taxpayers less money while at the same time give the homeless a real opportunity to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  4. #134
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    The question "I would not support providing apartments to the homeless even if it is cheaper to the taxpayer.", presupposes that giving away apartments is cheaper than not supplying them infers that disagreeing with the question is unsound financially. The wording is prejudicial.
    Thing is, study after study has found that yes, it IS cheaper to pay for apartments for homeless to live in than it is to pay for what happens because they're out on the streets (police, courts (and lawyers), jails, emergency rooms, increased insurance costs for businesses). I've seen nothing yet showing that it's more expensive to provide apartments than it is to leave them on the streets.

    It's not a presupposition - it's a fact. A counterintuitive fact to be sure, but a fact nonetheless.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #135
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by logansrun View Post
    I support sheltering some, but not all of them. If a woman flees an abusive situation, setting them and their kids up in housing is acceptable. If someone is homeless because their parents kicked them out because they are a 24 year old thieving drug addict who has never had a real job, then I would not support providing them housing.
    Alright, but the odds are pretty good that drug addict will steal from you or your neighbors to pay for his habit and his rent and food and all the rest. It's a choice, though!

    Our charity requires them to stay sober, get a job, keep their room clean, divide up the meals and cook their share, etc. and that appears to work for some, so if the room comes with conditions I'm OK with that. But if "housing first" works, and instead of 49 of 50 drug addicts supporting their habit by stealing, 20 0r 10 or maybe even 5 of them use the services to get treatment and long term are contributors, and that's cheaper for society than kicking them to the streets, I'm OK with that too - whatever works.

  6. #136
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Why would someone be working full time at a minimum wage job if they're trying to support a family?

    As to giving the homeless free apartments, how on God's green earth can you believe free apartments for the homeless will be "cheaper" in the long run? Because some group of ideologues conducted a "study"? How many freeloaders do you think will suddenly become "homeless" when they start giving away free apartments? Did your "study" figure that in?
    Picture this, guy. You've got a family to support...and you can work that minimum-wage job. You don't like doing it...but even though you're applying time and time again for higher-wage jobs, you're not getting them. Maybe it's you, or maybe it's the economy, or whatever...but you still have to feed your family.

    So your choice is this: work that minimum wage job...or quit and be unemployed.

    THAT, sir, is the choice faced by millions of Americans.

    And you're wondering how providing an apartment can be cheaper - how about looking into how much it costs to keep someone in jail for just ONE day - it's over $1000, or over $3000 per month. Add to that the cost of providing extra police, the costs of the judges and the lawyers, the increased insurance costs for businesses...and then there's the increased costs in the emergency rooms from the higher level of crime that involves homeless people.

    Yeah, it's counterintuitive...but it's a fact. It DOES cost less to provide a freaking not-so-nice studio apartment to a homeless person than it does to pay for what happens because that person is out on the street 24/7.

    And one last thing, guy - just because a study says something you don't like hearing, doesn't mean that study isn't accurate. Ah, but I forget - if scientists and researchers say something conservatives don't want to hear, those scientists and researchers MUST be wrong - see Global Warming, Evolution, Homosexuality...the list goes on....
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #137
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Not what I said, I was referring towards taxpayer programs for the homeless.
    And my point was, are you willing to pay more for police, courts, lawyers, prisons, ER's for what happens because homeless people are on the streets 24/7...even though it has been shown in several studies that it really is cheaper for the taxpayer to pay for apartments for them?

    You're going to pay more for one, or less for the other. If you insist that nothing at all be done for the homeless, then the costs of the police, courts, lawyers, prisons, and ER's automatically goes up...and you'll be paying for that.

    You pay for one or for the other...but you will pay. Which one is in the best interests of the taxpayers?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #138
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Alright, but the odds are pretty good that drug addict will steal from you or your neighbors to pay for his habit and his rent and food and all the rest. It's a choice, though!
    And if you put him in an apartment the odds are pretty good he will steal from his neighbors to fund the things other than rent by the same argument. It comes across like you are trying to extort money: Either pay us so we make sure he steals from someone other than you or he will steal from you instead. A thief is a thief. Put him in jail or a rehab facility against his will. Negotiating with addicts is codependency.

    Our charity requires them to stay sober, get a job, keep their room clean, divide up the meals and cook their share, etc. and that appears to work for some, so if the room comes with conditions I'm OK with that. But if "housing first" works, and instead of 49 of 50 drug addicts supporting their habit by stealing, 20 0r 10 or maybe even 5 of them use the services to get treatment and long term are contributors, and that's cheaper for society than kicking them to the streets, I'm OK with that too - whatever works.
    I would not consider a 10% success rate a success. As I suggested earlier, there are some types of homelessness I would support paying for their aid. There are other types I would not because I do not think that the odds favor them changing just because they have a free roof over their heads.

  9. #139
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by azgreg View Post
    What I've read is the homeless that they have housed are spending way less time in emergency rooms and jails.

    How Housing for the Chronically Homeless May Save Taxpayers Money | Fox Business
    It may well be cheaper at first. Whether the life time sum of costs is? Hard to say.
    But we should probably find accommodations and use them to help them back into society and work.
    Last edited by joG; 06-09-15 at 03:27 PM.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And you're pretending that these people aren't going to be doing all of these same things in their new apartments. People keep pointing out how wrong you are, you just won't listen. Instead of costing $31k, it will cost $41k.
    And instead of examining how it worked out in real life, you're making a claim based on...what? Oh, yeah, your ASSUMPTIONS.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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