View Poll Results: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

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  • If it's cheaper to the taxpayer, I would support providing apartments for the homeless.

    29 65.91%
  • I would not support providing apartments to the homeless even if it is cheaper to the taxpayer.

    15 34.09%
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Thread: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

  1. #111
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    I think we often approach the homeless problem from the wrong direction. Many homeless have underlying issues that have led to their homelessness such as mental illness or addiction. It is not simply a case of them being to lazy to work as I believe many people perceive them to be. Due to their conditions many cannot maintain gainful employment. We to often put programs into place to provide housing while simply ignoring the causes of their homelessness and expect the problem to be solved. I believe we are putting the cart before the horse.

    I also believe we spend more money on the housing side of things than we should (this goes for all publicly assisted housing) and I believe this wasted money could be better used providing programs to help them treat their mental illnesses and addictions.

    I believe all publicly assisted housing should look more like this (along with communal facilities).

    Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?-jap1-jpg

    Instead of this.

    Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?-4526989039_44a71c01de-300x199-jpg

    I personally do not agree with the notion that people that cannot do for themselves should have the same standard of living as those that do and all of it being provided by the taxpayer. However I do think it is in all our best interests to provide them with the most basic of services and the treatment they need so that they can hopefully one day better their own lives.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Why should I have to fund courts I don't use? Let people who need the courts and judges to enforce contracts pay all those bills.
    That's how it should work.
    We can theoretically eliminate all government and pay for it all as we go. Heck, if my wife is murdered and I care who did it, I can fund a police investigation - they can charge me by the hour. Why should you have to pay for investigating a crime against ME???!!!
    I pay police to protect my rights. Investigating crimes is part of that.

    All you're doing is stating your priorities - police, but not SS - and would if possible force YOUR priorities on me. You don't have that right, as I don't have that right. We both get a vote, and the ability to influence the government's priorities in other ways if we are so moved - protest, donate money, lobby, write letters, give speeches....
    You see no difference between police and SS. That is part of the reason this conversation is going nowhere, A free society forces nothing upon you. Your society forces a great deal upon me.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The distinction I made was between what was being discussed (wealth transfer schemes) and what you introduced (Police, fire, etc) As to how the latter would be paid in absence of direct taxation is not exactly a mystery.
    It is a mystery to me. And who determines the "etc."? And at what levels those mystery services should be funded?

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    That's how it should work.
    So a poor person has no access to the courts and therefore no ability to enforce the law or a contract?

    I pay police to protect my rights. Investigating crimes is part of that.
    If protecting your rights is important, why don't you pay for that yourself? Why should Romney and Buffett pay to protect your rights?

    You see no difference between police and SS. That is part of the reason this conversation is going nowhere, A free society forces nothing upon you. Your society forces a great deal upon me.
    Of course I see a difference. What I disagree about is the notion that you have some higher claim on what is or isn't an appropriate government services than other citizens in your community, who vote for representatives that govern according to shared values, same as you do. And by your terms, there has never been in all of recorded history a "free society" larger than a small tribe.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It is a mystery to me. And who determines the "etc."? And at what levels those mystery services should be funded?
    Eliminate all wealth transfer welfare schemes and funding what is left amounts to mere pennies on the dollar. As for how it could be funded, you answered that yourself in the very first line of your last response to me. People who use the courts and the legal system pay for it. For example, Lebron James negotiates a new contract with the Cavs for $100,000,000. If there was a fee of 1% per dollar value of every contract, Lebron and the Cavs would cough up a million dollars. I buy your car for $10,000 and we cough up $100. That way people who use the legal system pay for it.

  6. #116
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Why don't we give every man, woman, and child 1.5x the poverty rate and let them do as they will? Then, if someone wants better they can go get a job. But those who don't care have the means to have the basics, and it's fair because everybody has the means to have the basics. It'd be only the extras you work for.

    There. Problem solved.
    IIRC there are several nations that have a guaranteed income for their citizens...and these nations are for the most part still doing very well, thank you very much.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    If it is shown that it costs less in taxpayer dollars to provide apartments for the homeless than it would be to just let them remain homeless in the streets, would you support using taxpayer dollars to pay for apartments for the homeless?

    Why or why not?
    apartments? .. no way.... you're talking about giving away, for free, that which everybody else works very hard and pays big money for.

    I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of living quarters, though...something like old school Marine Squad bays.
    something that provides the very basics in shelter and hygiene facilities, at minimal cost to taxpayers.

    I also wouldn't be opposed to a chow hall, if staffed by the residents themselves.

    Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?-parris_island_6-jpg

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Probably would be cheaper... right now. It would also provide incentive for people currently on the edge to just give up and join the ranks of the homeless.

    This is a "be careful what you wish for" solution.
    I think I've stated elsewhere that yes, there would be those who would abuse the system...but most won't. There's no indication I can find anywhere that so many would abuse the system to the point that it would become more expensive than the alternative.

    And just to remind everyone, it cost significantly more per month to keep a person in prison than to pay for that person's apartment.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    IIRC there are several nations that have a guaranteed income for their citizens...and these nations are for the most part still doing very well, thank you very much.
    I'd definitely go for a basic income guarantee.... but that would cause a massive slaughter-fest of many sacred cows on all sides of the aisle.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    I think we often approach the homeless problem from the wrong direction. Many homeless have underlying issues that have led to their homelessness such as mental illness or addiction. It is not simply a case of them being to lazy to work as I believe many people perceive them to be. Due to their conditions many cannot maintain gainful employment. We to often put programs into place to provide housing while simply ignoring the causes of their homelessness and expect the problem to be solved. I believe we are putting the cart before the horse.
    The story didn't have a lot of details, but most I've read about don't just hand the homeless keys and say "Have fun!" They almost always have social workers of some kind who work with them to get problems such as health issues and mental health issues addressed and if run at all well will work with them on the rest.

    I think the idea is with a permanent place to live, the homeless can finally get stable enough to address the other issues. Let's say Joe needs meds to control mental health issues. It's nearly impossible for that to be sustained if Joe is on the street, but is possible if he's living somewhere and a rep comes by, makes sure he gets the medical appointments scheduled, can help arrange transportation, etc.

    I also believe we spend more money on the housing side of things than we should (this goes for all publicly assisted housing) and I believe this wasted money could be better used providing programs to help them treat their mental illnesses and addictions.

    I personally do not agree with the notion that people that cannot do for themselves should have the same standard of living as those that do and all of it being provided by the taxpayer. However I do think it is in all our best interests to provide them with the most basic of services and the treatment they need so that they can hopefully one day better their own lives.
    I agree basically. There are selfish benefits of a stable society and safety from having an income floor of sorts. Just as an example, we have friends in Bolivia, which isn't big on social welfare spending, especially for the indigenous population. What that means is all the decent houses in the city are surrounded by 8-12 foot walls, topped with barbed wire or cut class, and you can't park your car on the streets or in a parking lot unless you pay some local touring the lot for "protection" of your vehicle.

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