View Poll Results: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

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  • If it's cheaper to the taxpayer, I would support providing apartments for the homeless.

    29 65.91%
  • I would not support providing apartments to the homeless even if it is cheaper to the taxpayer.

    15 34.09%
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Thread: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

  1. #91
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    BTW, the comment I responded to was that neither he nor I is "obligated" to help. As an ethical issue, I think we ARE obligated to help. We can't individually address every moral or ethical issue - there isn't enough time or money to do that - but that doesn't give us permission to ignore the problem either. That's why I do support public efforts. If we left all this up to charity, knowing millions would fall through the cracks, IMO we are not behaving morally or ethically.

    One other point, in this reality, the actual approach given the failures of charities and public efforts is to provide free medical care, housing, food in regular stays funded by taxpayers in jails and prisons. That is the default, keep on the current road, approach. I can't support that on any level - fiscally, ethically, or on what can be expected to work to turn these lives around.
    The bolded is nothing more than your own personal opinion. If you believe you are 'obliged to help' then you are free to do so. What you are not free to do is FORCE me to join you. That is the essence of what it means to be free men, equal in our rights--you go your way and I go mine. That is never good enough for liberals. They see something as right or just or moral and force everyone to participate whether they want to or not. YOU see helping them as a moral imperative. You help them and leave me free to follow my own conscience in such matters.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Cheaper for the taxpayer? Cheaper then what?

    Providing clean, safe shelters is enough.

    It is not possible - except in Fantasyland - to provide an apartment for a homeless person from taxpayers that is sustainable.

    This 'give the poor everything' nonsense is just that - nonsense. Give them money, give them food, give them 'dignity' and now give them an apartment. What is the incentive for these people to get jobs if they get everything they need and/or want by sitting on their butts?
    The government should provide safe/clean shelter, food, clothing and basic healthcare (full healthcare for children)...and that is it.
    If they want more, then they can get a job an earn it.
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    No. Now you are intentionally trying to misunderstand. Let me make it clear for you: charity to have any moral worth or value must be voluntary. State mandated wealth transfers are not a replacement for voluntary Christian giving, nor are they in the slightest bit moral. You do not steal so that good may come.
    But I don't accept equating taxes with stealing. That's your opinion, not mine or the country as a whole. You've made a decision to live here or to stay here and by doing so have made a decision to agree to the terms, which are the laws of the land, including the tax laws. You have the same right I do to work to change those terms, but it's not "theft" when the community has decided for itself what the tax levels should be and where the proceeds are spent.

    And I fundamentally and completely disagree with you about "state mandated transfers." In my view the 'state' is a reflection of the community, and a moral community takes care of the disadvantaged. How that help is delivered is of secondary importance to me. Sure, I'd prefer that voluntary contributions to charitable orgs get the job done, but the task is too great for them and there hasn't been one second in all of recorded history where such "voluntary" efforts were sufficient. State mandated transfers are also insufficient, for that matter, but are an improvement.

    I am not a Christian. And I do nothing to set up charities. That is my right as a free man. You may call that immoral if you like, but my actions are not a moral crime no matter what you think. You, on the other hand, don't get to then choose the immoral path of confiscating that which does not belong to you in order to do "good."
    OK, we have a different notion of what is and isn't 'moral' and 'immoral.' It would be amazing if two thinking humans did agree. It's why we have a representative government - to weigh all those differences of opinion on hundreds or thousands of issues and make the decisions on our behalf...

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The bolded is nothing more than your own personal opinion. If you believe you are 'obliged to help' then you are free to do so. What you are not free to do is FORCE me to join you. That is the essence of what it means to be free men, equal in our rights--you go your way and I go mine. That is never good enough for liberals. They see something as right or just or moral and force everyone to participate whether they want to or not. YOU see helping them as a moral imperative. You help them and leave me free to follow my own conscience in such matters.
    Sure - it's why I modified the statement with "I think..." And you've given me nothing more than your personal opinion. We apparently disagree!

    And we all get "forced" to "participate" in government programs whether we want to or not. We're talking local issues, so a recent local example is they just put in a new exit to serve a big new shopping center. My own view is if the owner of the center wants an exit, good for him - build it. Unfortunately no one actually asked me my opinion and my local and state taxes subsidize this center, as they did the local Walmart that also got its own exit. In this case, the almost 100% "conservatives" in my red city in my red state saw something that was "right or just or moral" - using tax dollars to subsidize a business - "and force[d] everyone to participate whether they want to or not."

    You don't have any better options than I do. It's life in a developed country with elected government! I prefer it to the alternatives!

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But I don't accept equating taxes with stealing.
    Of course you don't. That's what makes you a liberal. You taking things that don't belong to you is theft. That you elect people into office to do it for you does not change that. You just pretend it does. You have the right to dispose of your own property, not mine.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Of course you don't. That's what makes you a liberal. You taking things that don't belong to you is theft. That you elect people into office to do it for you does not change that. You just pretend it does. You have the right to dispose of your own property, not mine.
    You're right, I don't have any right to tax you, but the government whose laws you agree to follow by residing here DOES simply, objectively have the "right" to levy taxes. And....

    "You've made a decision to live here or to stay here and by doing so have made a decision to agree to the terms, which are the laws of the land, including the tax laws. You have the same right I do to work to change those terms, but it's not "theft" when the community has decided for itself what the tax levels should be and where the proceeds are spent."

    Unfortunately for me and you, no one actually asks our opinion or gives us individual veto powers over government spending decisions. If you had that power, we'd call you "King" or the equivalent!

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Sure - it's why I modified the statement with "I think..." And you've given me nothing more than your personal opinion. We apparently disagree!

    And we all get "forced" to "participate" in government programs whether we want to or not. We're talking local issues, so a recent local example is they just put in a new exit to serve a big new shopping center. My own view is if the owner of the center wants an exit, good for him - build it. Unfortunately no one actually asked me my opinion and my local and state taxes subsidize this center, as they did the local Walmart that also got its own exit. In this case, the almost 100% "conservatives" in my red city in my red state saw something that was "right or just or moral" - using tax dollars to subsidize a business - "and force[d] everyone to participate whether they want to or not."

    You don't have any better options than I do. It's life in a developed country with elected government! I prefer it to the alternatives!
    Free societies don't operate that way. The essence of freedom is the ability to say "no." People should not have the power to force their neighbors to fund the welfare of others. Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens here.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You're right, I don't have any right to tax you, but the government whose laws you agree to follow by residing here DOES simply, objectively have the "right" to levy taxes.
    Governments do not possess 'rights' only individuals do. Government has powers, and just powers are those delegated to it by the citizens. Since you have no just power to take my property for your purposes, you cannot rightly delegate a power you lack to the state.
    "You've made a decision to live here or to stay here and by doing so have made a decision to agree to the terms, which are the laws of the land, including the tax laws. You have the same right I do to work to change those terms, but it's not "theft" when the community has decided for itself what the tax levels should be and where the proceeds are spent."

    Unfortunately for me and you, no one actually asks our opinion or gives us individual veto powers over government spending decisions. If you had that power, we'd call you "King" or the equivalent!
    Robbing Peter to pay Paul is robbing Peter. The moral stand I choose to take is the one that opposes theft by the state for any purpose. The supposed 'goodness' of the ends do not justify the use of evil means.

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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Probably would be cheaper... right now. It would also provide incentive for people currently on the edge to just give up and join the ranks of the homeless.

    This is a "be careful what you wish for" solution.
    Has the low income housing developments been successes?
    Haven't a large part of them become magnets for violent crime and dug abuse / dealing and drug gangs?

    Seems that this solution was already tried and didn't do so well. No, I think temporary homeless shelters are probably a better solution, preferably run by charities and not on the public dime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    There is no reason, given the resources that we have in this country, that any American should be homeless or hungry. To answer the poll, I would support it even if it were not cheaper. Great if it is, but I would support it either way.
    Nice in theory, but you'd need to answer the above questions. If you propose no changes, why is it you expect a different outcome?
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    Re: Is is cheaper for the taxpayer to provide apartments for the homeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Of course you don't. That's what makes you a liberal. You taking things that don't belong to you is theft. That you elect people into office to do it for you does not change that. You just pretend it does. You have the right to dispose of your own property, not mine.
    If you were able to opt out of paying taxes... which it sounds you would like to do... would you also opt out of public services, i.e. police services, fire protection, public roads, etc.?
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