View Poll Results: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

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  • Yes, we screwed it up, and we're going to pay a heavy price)

    28 45.90%
  • They asked for it!

    0 0%
  • It wasn't just us, we had help.

    14 22.95%
  • No, it would have come to this point even without our involvement.

    10 16.39%
  • Other.

    9 14.75%
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Thread: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?[W:51***]

  1. #51
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Moderator's Warning:
    Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?[W:51***]Comments specific to the I/P conflict are not allowed. Please stick to the topic and leave that out.

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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    I think things would be bad even if we had ignored the Middle East, we haven't help things and played a role for sure, but there are some fundamental issues, in my opinion, that would still cause some of the instability and issues today even without us being involved.

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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by B'smith View Post
    ________________
    Not quite true.

    The Israel/Palestine tragedy is really much simpler: Foreign Immigrants & Zionist Terrorist gangs invaded distant Palestine from Russia, Brooklyn, England, Poland etc & with the near omnipotent clout of Zionist Lobbies in England & the U.S., forced their Colony on Native Residents. The Foreign UN then awarded 56 percent of Palestine to its new 650,000 Jewish inhabitants, and 44 percent to its existing 1,300,000 Muslim and Christian Arab inhabitants. The U.N. was just a Colonial entity doing the will of the Zionist Lobby dominated, Colonial Governments.

    The US & British Zionist lobbies were as influential in the early 1900s as they are now.

    The unfortunate Arabs who lived up to their agreement (“The McMahon Agreement”)* with the British government were simply betrayed due to the machinations of the British Zionist Lobby & have been cheated, slaughtered & expelled from their land ever since......The Arabs knew nothing of & had no reason to cede their land & any authority to the Foreign U.N..

    It's that simple but Israelis & members of the Israeli Hasbara network need to obfuscate the simple truth with blaming the Arabs for not meekly submitting to slaughter, Evictions & agreeing to outrageously unfair Foreign dictates.



    Thanks


    * The McMahone Agreement

    The McMahon Agreement

    EXCERPT “The McMahon-Hussein Agreement of October 1915 was accepted by Palestinians as a promise by the British that after World War One, land previously held by the Turks would be returned to the Arab nationals who lived in that land."CONTINUED

    The McMahone Agreement preceded the Balfour Declaration by 3 years. The Balfour Declaration was created under Lord Rothschild's influence over Lord Balfour
    The British have also made an agreement with France where they promised to split the land, a promise made after the promise to the Arabs. The two agreements contradicted each other and as such they sought a third option as the fair solution - and that was the Balfour Declaration.

    As to the reference to the Jewish immigrants to the land as "invaders" that is a false term since the definition of invasion is entering a land belonging to someone else without permission. The land of Palestine was not a state but a province. The Jewish immigrants had joined an already existing Jewish community in the land and did not create a new one. The Jewish people, as pointed above, have a strong and indisputable claim to the land after living in it for over 3,000 years continuously and the fact that this is their only homeland as a people. The term 'homeland' refers to the place where a people have first emerged, not to the place where an individual is born. (Russia, Ukraine, Poland, etc.) The Brits have recognized this in the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Also I fail to see the relevancy of the Jewish groups Irgun and Lehi to all this since they only emerged in the 30's, ten years after the emergent of Palestinian-Arab terrorism which targeted Jews in the land for murder.

    The aggression and the acts of war by the Arab nations and Palestinian-Arab leaders are condemnable, and the alternative to these actions was not "being slaughtered" but rather living in peace alongside a Jewish nation. This is the only moral position, which was unfortunately not held by the Arab aggressors. They were not cheated and were not slaughtered - they were promoting an unjust solution with a religious interest to see the entire land becoming an Islamic land.

    Edit: Had just seen the warning Gina, my apologies.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 06-09-15 at 11:11 PM.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I'm not too comfortable with "well we ****ed them over, but they're irreparable now, so **** em'."

    Then again, they probably would rather we left them alone...
    Hey, I hear ya. But - did we f**k'em over; started in 1953. We raided their natural resources and tried to put a thumb on'em.

    They have always been over the top sectarian and rather like Australian Bush Men. After WWI we made kings and nations, and this is the result.

    We should just walk away - they deserve it.
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Hey, I hear ya. But - did we f**k'em over; started in 1953. We raided their natural resources and tried to put a thumb on'em.

    They have always been over the top sectarian and rather like Australian Bush Men. After WWI we made kings and nations, and this is the result.

    We should just walk away - they deserve it.

    I assume you mean the CIA overthrow of democratically elected & reformist Mossedegh in 1953 as a favor for the exploitative Anglo-Iranian Oil company. The US installation of the Shah with his dreaded SAVAK was the primary cause of Iran's later, hostile Islamic Revolution.

    Most historians point to Truman's recognition of Israel as a major mistake / "screw-up". Truman's action was not out of any noble sentiments for democracy or fondness for the Zionist cause but simply to get the American Jewish vote & to placate already influential Zionist lobbies.


    Truman's political actions were against the advice of US Military, Intelligence & Diplomatic advisors & is outlined in:

    “Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the United States Was Used to Create Israel”
    Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the United States Was Used to Create Israel by Alison Weir

    EXCERPT “Ambassador Andrew Killgore Soon after WWII, US statesman Dean Acheson warned that creating Israel on land already inhabited by Palestinians would "imperil" both American and all Western interests in the region.

    Despite warnings such as this one, President Truman supported establishing a Jewish state on land primarily inhabited by Muslims and Christians.

    Few Americans today are aware that US support enabled the creation of modern Israel. Even fewer know that US politicians pushed this policy over the forceful objections of top diplomatic and military experts.

    As this work demonstrates, these politicians were bombarded by a massive pro-Israel lobbying effort that ranged from well-funded and very public Zionist organizations to an "elitist secret society" whose members included Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis” CONTINUED

    The consequences of his rash & counterproductive political decision exaggerated already existing tensions & left the US facing these two salient realities. The establishment of a Zionist / Jewish State was not inherently wrong, the folly was in the place & way in which it was forcing a Foreign, alien Culture on a long pre-existing Christian & Muslim Community.


    “There was not a single act of Arab terrorism against Americans before 1968, when the U.S. became the chief supplier of military equipment and economic aid to Israel.”

    "Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."-- John Sheehan,


    "Israel" was essentially a Foreign Colony imposed on a long pre-existing Community by outside, Foreign powers.

    The Foreign nature of the ever expanding Zionist state is best exemplified y the fact that out of the 37 signers of Israel's Declaration of Independence, only 1 was from Palestine.
    Last edited by B'smith; 06-10-15 at 07:28 AM.

  6. #56
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    The very question posed assumes that the middle east was somehow NOT screwed up before our involvement.

    I think we are a catalyst (or more accurately reagent) in regards to the situation in the middle east, but we certainly did not create the profoundly regressive culture where people routinely marry their close kin. The degree of inbreeding in the Middle east makes the Hatfields and McCoys look like perfectly modern liberalism in comparison.
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by B'smith View Post
    I assume you mean the CIA overthrow of democratically elected & reformist Mossedegh in 1953 as a favor for the exploitative Anglo-Iranian Oil company. The US installation of the Shah with his dreaded SAVAK was the primary cause of Iran's later, hostile Islamic Revolution.

    Most historians point to Truman's recognition of Israel as a major mistake / "screw-up". Truman's action was not out of any noble sentiments for democracy or fondness for the Zionist cause but simply to get the American Jewish vote & to placate already influential Zionist lobbies.


    Truman's political actions were against the advice of US Military, Intelligence & Diplomatic advisors & is outlined in:

    “Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the United States Was Used to Create Israel”
    Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the United States Was Used to Create Israel by Alison Weir

    EXCERPT “Ambassador Andrew Killgore Soon after WWII, US statesman Dean Acheson warned that creating Israel on land already inhabited by Palestinians would "imperil" both American and all Western interests in the region.

    Despite warnings such as this one, President Truman supported establishing a Jewish state on land primarily inhabited by Muslims and Christians.

    Few Americans today are aware that US support enabled the creation of modern Israel. Even fewer know that US politicians pushed this policy over the forceful objections of top diplomatic and military experts.

    As this work demonstrates, these politicians were bombarded by a massive pro-Israel lobbying effort that ranged from well-funded and very public Zionist organizations to an "elitist secret society" whose members included Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis” CONTINUED

    The consequences of his rash & counterproductive political decision exaggerated already existing tensions & left the US facing these two salient realities. The establishment of a Zionist / Jewish State was not inherently wrong, the folly was in the place & way in which it was forcing a Foreign, alien Culture on a long pre-existing Christian & Muslim Community.


    “There was not a single act of Arab terrorism against Americans before 1968, when the U.S. became the chief supplier of military equipment and economic aid to Israel.”

    "Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."-- John Sheehan,


    "Israel" was essentially a Foreign Colony imposed on a long pre-existing Community by outside, Foreign powers.

    The Foreign nature of the ever expanding Zionist state is best exemplified y the fact that out of the 37 signers of Israel's Declaration of Independence, only 1 was from Palestine.
    Justify that empirically please. Statistics and numbers would be helpful.

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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Yeah, things were much better with state genocide and court sentences of gang rape.
    Don't forget mass graves.
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    US mistakes go back far further than 2001. Mistake number one: Kermit Roosevelt Jr.

    But you weren't alone and shouldn't try to shoulder all the responsibility. External forces have been meddling in the ME for ever. Anyone heard of Alexander the Great? The Crusades? More recently, has the ME been generally at peace since WWI?
    Anyone ever heard of radical Islam?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Hopefully you will be able to follow my response without your quotes.

    [Omitted text of OP for space]
    I'll do my best.

    1. I suppose my initial response would be that I reject the characterization and factual matter of many, if not most, of your assertions.

    In my opinion one of the cardinal errors in the analysis of Cold War political events is to ascribe more power and weight to certain actors than is due. You cite examples of coups in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Turkey, Eqypt. Why? A careful review of each case makes it clear that in almost every example the US has a minimal hand, or more frequently, none at all.

    Iraq? We have no paternity for any of the coups that gripped Iraq, not for 1958, not for 1961, not for 1968. The best that can be alleged is that there was some sort of ancillary 'awareness' for some of them. They were the result of domestic grievances, internal political factions, and self-motivated.

    Syria? Of the half dozen or so coups that Syria has experienced since its independence only one shows any trace of US involvement. It remains a matter of fierce dispute as to how involved the United States was in the military coup of 1949, however it seems clear that, with or without the United States, Husni Zaim was probably willing to make a go of it.

    Afghanistan? I'm not sure how to address this one. As far as I'm aware the United States has never been accused of involvement in any coup in Afghanistan. Both the 1973 coup d'etat and the Saur Revolution happened without US involvement.

    Turkey? We may have benefited, or been pleased by the outcome, of some of the Turkish coups but this is a far cry from alleging that we were involved in them. The only Turkish coup we have been seriously accused of having even a remote hand in is the one which took place in 1980. This remains fiercely contested with the only things proven to a degree of certainty is that we were probably alerted to the coup about an hour before it took place and that several State Department and CIA officials in Ankara were pleased that the coup took place. But it would be ludicrous to pretend that the coup wouldn't have happened without US support. We have ample precedent here to disabuse ourselves of that notion.

    Then we come to Iran. Honestly I'd prefer to leave Iran as its own topic because of how long the debate would be on this one. Suffice it to say my position is that people dramatically undervalue the power of domestic political forces in Iran and overestimate the role that the United States play.

    As for assassinations when did we try to assassinate Nasser? What plot are you referring to? As for Saddam I'm not going to shed a tear. If others feel so pained that we assisted Iraqi patriots in their efforts to assassinate a genocidal fascist tyrant they can do so without me.

    I've omitted any responses concerning Israel/Palestine because of the Mod warning I just noticed.

    2. Why do we have no business being involved? Because it is geographically 'over there'? Personally I'm not particularly wedded to the kind of provincialism that says I only have an interest in what takes place within these artificial national borders. Further, it wouldn't have been 'left to themselves' to resolve. The absence of US involvement would simply mean other powers would fill the void. In this case the Soviet Union would have been free to flood the region with troops, money, guns, advisors, etc. We become involved in the region to prevent it from turning into a Sovietized sphere and preventing the vital energy resources of the region from falling under their control. Finally without our involvement the humanitarian and political outcomes in the region would have been even more catastrophic and grotesque.

    3. I can't really address this. You may think we need to dramatically overhaul our energy policies but it doesn't change the present requirements of not just the United States, but the Civilized world. I do disagree that people die so Americans can 'live large'.

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