View Poll Results: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

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  • Yes, we screwed it up, and we're going to pay a heavy price)

    28 45.90%
  • They asked for it!

    0 0%
  • It wasn't just us, we had help.

    14 22.95%
  • No, it would have come to this point even without our involvement.

    10 16.39%
  • Other.

    9 14.75%
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Thread: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?[W:51***]

  1. #41
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Mistake number one. Bush should not have invaded Iraq.

    Mistake number two. Everything Obama has done in Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Yemen.

    you spelled operation ajax wrong.

  2. #42
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Mistake number one. Bush should not have invaded Iraq.

    Mistake number two. Everything Obama has done in Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Yemen.
    US mistakes go back far further than 2001. Mistake number one: Kermit Roosevelt Jr.

    But you weren't alone and shouldn't try to shoulder all the responsibility. External forces have been meddling in the ME for ever. Anyone heard of Alexander the Great? The Crusades? More recently, has the ME been generally at peace since WWI?
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I agree but that's more true in Africa's case than it is in the case of the Middle East.
    Africa is an utter mess.

    The formation itself did not ensure a war will happen, it is the position of the Arab nations that a Jewish state is unacceptable in the land that is the reason for the wars.
    The formation itself is one of a multiple of problems involving Israel. The Arab nation position against a Jewish state is the same position as the US, Russia and everyone else.

    The majority population might have been non-Jewish but in the lands that were given to the Palestinian-Jews the majority were actually Jewish.
    It was not their land to give in the first place.... Yes Jews lived there, so did Christians and the majority were Muslims. They had lived there for thousands of years. The UN, US, France and the UK had no right what so ever to give the land in the region to anyone but the people who were living there in the first place. It should have been up to them to decide what kind of nation or nations that should be formed.. no one else.

    This assertion is false, the Soviets pushed Egypt and Syria into Soviet hands and nobody else did. They offered them money and weapons that nobody else offered them, why wouldn't they join hands under the Soviet umbrella?
    Again not exactly true. Both Egypt and Syria were pushed in the Soviet direction in part over the formation of Israel and the aftermath of said formation. It is one thing that the west has never understood about the Middle East.... People in the region, regardless of tribe or sect, tend to stick together in the case of outside invasion. It has always been like that.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Africa is an utter mess.
    Precisely due to the reasons that you've mentioned.

    The formation itself is one of a multiple of problems involving Israel. The Arab nation position against a Jewish state is the same position as the US, Russia and everyone else.
    What do you mean? The US and Russia voted for the partition plan that referred to a Jewish state alongside two Arab states. The Arab nations held a position against any deal that would result in the creation of a Jewish state in a land they considered part of the 'Ummah', regardless of the deal's details.

    It was not their land to give in the first place.... Yes Jews lived there, so did Christians and the majority were Muslims. They had lived there for thousands of years. The UN, US, France and the UK had no right what so ever to give the land in the region to anyone but the people who were living there in the first place. It should have been up to them to decide what kind of nation or nations that should be formed.. no one else.
    The Brits ruled the land, you can argue that they gained it by conquest and it was not theirs to control but there was no actual "state" in the land since the Hasmonean dynasty, one of the Israeli kingdoms. This ended with the Roman conquests of 63 BCE, declaring the land a province and naming it "Palestine" so to mock the occupied people - the Jewish people - who were the nemesis of the Philistines, a people who lived in what is today the Gaza Strip and the city of Ashkelon. The Brits decided to let the international community decide what to do and they decided on the partition plan, UN resolution 181. Jews lived in the land for over 3,000 years continuously and always maintained a population in the land, those who immigrated from Europe between 1881-1948 have all had ancestors who had lived in the land and had a claim as much as the Jews who had ancestors that never left the land. It was completely justified to form a Jewish state in the land. And again, while the majority of Mandate Palestine were not Jewish the majority of those who lived in the lands that became Israel actually were.

    Again not exactly true. Both Egypt and Syria were pushed in the Soviet direction in part over the formation of Israel and the aftermath of said formation. It is one thing that the west has never understood about the Middle East.... People in the region, regardless of tribe or sect, tend to stick together in the case of outside invasion. It has always been like that.
    Of course the formation of Israel had to do with it. What would they need arms for if they didn't have the wars they called on Israel? But that doesn't make it the primary reason. The Soviet willingness to have influence in that region is all that was needed for the Soviets to create their alliances with Egypt and Syria. As to the comment about an outside invasion, I'm afraid that this has to do about their shared religion and their viewing of their nations as part of a whole religious group of nations that seeks one goal more than anything else.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 06-09-15 at 12:46 PM.
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Africa is an utter mess.



    The formation itself is one of a multiple of problems involving Israel. The Arab nation position against a Jewish state is the same position as the US, Russia and everyone else.



    It was not their land to give in the first place.... Yes Jews lived there, so did Christians and the majority were Muslims. They had lived there for thousands of years. The UN, US, France and the UK had no right what so ever to give the land in the region to anyone but the people who were living there in the first place. It should have been up to them to decide what kind of nation or nations that should be formed.. no one else.



    Again not exactly true. Both Egypt and Syria were pushed in the Soviet direction in part over the formation of Israel and the aftermath of said formation. It is one thing that the west has never understood about the Middle East.... People in the region, regardless of tribe or sect, tend to stick together in the case of outside invasion. It has always been like that.
    Right, in 1956 Israel attacked Egypt's Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Soon following Britain and France attacked Egypt. The US then withdrew its agreement to help fund the building of the High Aswan Dam, a project which was a source of great pride to Egypt and the Arab world. Shortly after Britain and the World Bank also withdrew their offers to help fund the dam.

    As Britain and France prepared for war Egypt turned to the Soviet Union for arms.










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  6. #46
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    I think we have, and for decades to come. For good or for bad, and as imperfect as it was, it was somewhat stable. Now, it's chaos.

    Discuss.
    Yep, we've made a complete mess of the ME for greed and the Free Market fallacy to the point that it is now irreparable. The only thing left us to go oilless as much as possible and kiss those people goodbye.
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Right, in 1956 Israel attacked Egypt's Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Soon following Britain and France attacked Egypt.
    Yes..

    The US then withdrew its agreement to help fund the building of the High Aswan Dam, a project which was a source of great pride to Egypt and the Arab world. Shortly after Britain and the World Bank also withdrew their offers to help fund the dam.
    Arab world? LOL .. Egypt yea, but Arab world? LOL. And that is not exactly how it went down.

    As Britain and France prepared for war Egypt turned to the Soviet Union for arms.
    Lets look at the time line.

    1.) Nasser gains power. He is a nationalist and frankly could care less if it was the US or Soviets who support him.
    2.) Nasser goes and recognize China.. pissing off the US... the signs are there.
    3.) Nasser does not accept the US support/aid package, which includes financing of the dam and defensive weapons and military training. Moves closer to the Soviets.
    4.) Nasser moves to nationalize the Suez Canal, cutting the British and French out of the revenue and power of controlling the canal.
    5.) France, UK and Israel plan an attack and later carry it out.
    6.) The US is against this invasion, and basically forces the UK and France to withdraw by pulling its military and political support. The US sees this as the colonial masters asserting their colonial power. It was US policy since before WW2, to declaw the big European colonial powers and could not allow them to assert their power in Africa.
    7.) Nasser pissed at France, UK and Israel and some what at the US.. moves towards the Soviets instead for support.

    Like it or not, the US back stabbed France and the UK on the Suez canal, and at the same time pissed off the Egyptians driving them for a few decades in the hands of the Soviets.
    PeteEU

  8. #48
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Yep, we've made a complete mess of the ME for greed and the Free Market fallacy to the point that it is now irreparable. The only thing left us to go oilless as much as possible and kiss those people goodbye.
    I'm not too comfortable with "well we ****ed them over, but they're irreparable now, so **** em'."

    Then again, they probably would rather we left them alone...
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  9. #49
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    If you want to know what the Middle East looks like with out active US involvement, take a gander at Syria. Then take a look at the coming nuclear arms race between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Them's your options.
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Precisely due to the reasons that you've mentioned.



    What do you mean? The US and Russia voted for the partition plan that referred to a Jewish state alongside two Arab states. The Arab nations held a position against any deal that would result in the creation of a Jewish state in a land they considered part of the 'Ummah', regardless of the deal's details.



    EDITED FOR SPACE

    Of course the formation of Israel had to do with it. What would they need arms for if they didn't have the wars they called on Israel? But that doesn't make it the primary reason. The Soviet willingness to have influence in that region is all that was needed for the Soviets to create their alliances with Egypt and Syria. As to the comment about an outside invasion, I'm afraid that this has to do about their shared religion and their viewing of their nations as part of a whole religious group of nations that seeks one goal more than anything else.
    ________________
    Not quite true.

    The Israel/Palestine tragedy is really much simpler: Foreign Immigrants & Zionist Terrorist gangs invaded distant Palestine from Russia, Brooklyn, England, Poland etc & with the near omnipotent clout of Zionist Lobbies in England & the U.S., forced their Colony on Native Residents. The Foreign UN then awarded 56 percent of Palestine to its new 650,000 Jewish inhabitants, and 44 percent to its existing 1,300,000 Muslim and Christian Arab inhabitants. The U.N. was just a Colonial entity doing the will of the Zionist Lobby dominated, Colonial Governments.

    The US & British Zionist lobbies were as influential in the early 1900s as they are now.

    The unfortunate Arabs who lived up to their agreement (“The McMahon Agreement”)* with the British government were simply betrayed due to the machinations of the British Zionist Lobby & have been cheated, slaughtered & expelled from their land ever since......The Arabs knew nothing of & had no reason to cede their land & any authority to the Foreign U.N..

    It's that simple but Israelis & members of the Israeli Hasbara network need to obfuscate the simple truth with blaming the Arabs for not meekly submitting to slaughter, Evictions & agreeing to outrageously unfair Foreign dictates.



    Thanks


    * The McMahone Agreement

    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/mcmahon.htm

    EXCERPT “The McMahon-Hussein Agreement of October 1915 was accepted by Palestinians as a promise by the British that after World War One, land previously held by the Turks would be returned to the Arab nationals who lived in that land."CONTINUED

    The McMahone Agreement preceded the Balfour Declaration by 3 years. The Balfour Declaration was created under Lord Rothschild's influence over Lord Balfour
    Last edited by B'smith; 06-09-15 at 07:54 PM.

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