View Poll Results: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

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  • Yes, we screwed it up, and we're going to pay a heavy price)

    28 45.90%
  • They asked for it!

    0 0%
  • It wasn't just us, we had help.

    14 22.95%
  • No, it would have come to this point even without our involvement.

    10 16.39%
  • Other.

    9 14.75%
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Thread: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?[W:51***]

  1. #21
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Id say the blame falls on the world, including the middle east and the US. US definitely made it worse, so have many other countries, but the middle east damn sure isn't helping themselves.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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  2. #22
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The government of Iraq no longer commits genocide nor sentences gang rape.
    Sure it does..... its called ISIS, its the existing government of Northern and Eastern Iraq.

    I believe the American adventures in the Middle East were the inspiration of the Cat-in-the-Hat Comes Back.

    https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=m...Hat+Comes+back

    GW was just little Cat C in the long list of fumblin's and bumblin's we have done in the middle east. The whole matter of installing the Shah of Iran in the 1950's was hardly a proud moment. Of course, the this ultimately led to the fundamentalists gaining power there when the pendulum swung the other way in the 1970's. We were for OBL in Afghanistan before we were against him; We for Saddam before we were against him.

    The middle east was mess before we fumbled and bumbled and turned into a bigger mess.... Our insatiable appetite for oil and our western arrogance that thinks all cultures should be western are two of the major wedges we have used in the ME to have far too many people there hating us....

    I am a big believer in walking softly and carrying a big stick. However, once you use the stick, you are no longer walking softly. Moreover as well evidenced by our disaster in Iraq, once you swing the stick, you are very likely to hurt yourself as much as anybody, revealing that your stick isn't really all the big.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 06-08-15 at 01:52 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    I think we have, and for decades to come. For good or for bad, and as imperfect as it was, it was somewhat stable. Now, it's chaos.

    Discuss.
    The UK and France were screwing up the Middle East decades before you came along.

  4. #24
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Sure it does..... its called ISIS, its the existing government of Northern and Eastern Iraq.

    I believe the American adventures in the Middle East were the inspiration of the Cat-in-the-Hat Comes Back.

    https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=m...Hat+Comes+back

    GW was just little Cat C in the long list of fumblin's and bumblin's we have done in the middle east. The whole matter of installing the Shah of Iran in the 1950's was hardly a proud moment. Of course, the this ultimately led to the fundamentalists gaining power there when the pendulum swung the other way in the 1970's. We were for OBL in Afghanistan before we were against him; We for Saddam before we were against him.

    The middle east was mess before we fumbled and bumbled and turned into a bigger mess.... Our insatiable appetite for oil and our western arrogance that thinks all cultures should be western are two of the major wedges we have used in the ME to have far too many people there hating us....

    I am a big believer in walking softly and carrying a big stick. However, once you use the stick, you are no longer walking softly. Moreover as well evidenced by our disaster in Iraq, once you swing the stick, you are very likely to hurt yourself as much as anybody, revealing that your stick isn't really all the big.
    Correction: ISIS is the existing government of Northern and Western Iraq

  5. #25
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    GROUP EFFORT

    I don't think it's entirely fair to say that "the US screwed up the Mid East" since the Foreign, Colonial meddling was a Colonial "Group Effort"

    British betrayal of the Arabs,(1) the forced injection of a Foreign population into an existing, Native Population & confiscation & redistribution long inhabited land would screw up any existing culture.

    There's nothing wrong with immigration except when it's forced, a completely alien culture & without the consent of the existing population.

    The existing, native Jewish, Christian & Muslim population was co-existing peacefully & all dreaded the arrival of Foreign, militant Zionists. I don't believe that immigration into the Region was wrong only that it should have been done more thoughtfully & with consideration of the existing Residents








    (1) The McMahon Agreement

  6. #26
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    Id say the blame falls on the world, including the middle east and the US. US definitely made it worse, so have many other countries, but the middle east damn sure isn't helping themselves.
    I don't even know what "helping themselves" means. They have a right to self determination and how they want to live their lives. They have chosen a theocratic tribal society. It isn't the same as a western democracy but they have no interest in having a western democracy. In fact, it's the west's meddling, trying to impose a western society on them, that has caused most of the problems. Take Saudi Arabia. They were doing just fine before WWI when the west arbitrarily picked one tribe to take charge because they wanted a single group to deal with. They didn't do that to themselves, it was imposed on them from the west.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #27
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Radicalism and fundamentalism screwed the Middle East.
    As close to the truth as anything. . . One can say that the extremists have bought this on themselves , via centuries of hatred and intolerance. And, the extremists are try to do the same to our own nation .

  8. #28
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    It's a religiously based society. Hence it's inherently screwed up. Islam is primordial.

  9. #29
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    It's a religiously based society. Hence it's inherently screwed up. Islam is primordial.
    Does that translate to "In God we trust," or am I cornfused.

  10. #30
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    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    1. I tried to address these in sequence.

    We haven't been "constantly screwing" with the 'people' and 'governments' of the region. The vast bulk of the regimes in the Middle East either predated US involvement and/or have come about as a result of indigenous movements. I struggle to think of a country who's borders we 'determined' other than Iraq when we drove them out of Kuwait. We've assassinated vanishingly few Middle Eastern leaders or heads of state. In fact I'm struggling to think of any that we did. Would you care to name some that you think we killed? The selection of 'new heads of state' has also been vanishingly rare if not non-existent. The only example that comes to mind might be Iran but that doesn't really fit with your description.

    We've certainly played both sides of the field in certain circumstances. This is only reasonable when you are presented with two terrible choices. The alternating support for Iraq and Iran during the Iran-Iraq War was emblematic of our desire that neither Baathist Iraq nor Islamist Iran would become hegemons in the Middle East.

    Obviously US companies, like Dutch, British, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc, etc, companies have invested in the region and have periodically been given state partnerships as a result of their technical expertise, especially in the 50's and 60's. This has largely abated in favor of more conventional FDI. When have we sent our missionaries to assist with propagating our 'national religions'? We've occupied one state: Iraq. I hardly care about the 'sovereignty' that a genocidal fascist dictator asserts. Etc, etc, etc.

    2. Without US involvement in the Middle East we could point to a plethora of likely outcomes. Going to the immediate post-war period in 1946, it is likely that without US pressure the Soviet Union would likely not have withdrawn support from the Mahabad Republic which would have likely resulted in the creation of a Sovietiezed Kurdish 'Republic' protruding into Iran as a springboard for deeper Soviet penetration and further conflict. This is just one early example among a litany. Without US involvement in the Middle East it is likely that Saddam Hussein and Baathist fascism would reign from the Euphrates to the Gulf and that his government would once again have become embroiled in a war with Iran, a war, with new resources, it might have won. Without US involvement it seems quite likely that Jordan would have collapsed in bloodbaths under pressure from Syrian backed Palestinian uprisings in the 1970's. Without US involvement it seems probable that the Soviet Union would have extended an immensely greater hand throughout the region ensuring much greater regional conflict and violence between the likes of Soviet backed Syria and Egypt against Jordan and Iraq. Instead, as a result of US involvement, these conflicts never materialized and remained 'cold' before eventually dissipating.

    I mean I could go on and on. The list of hypotheticals is nearly endless.

    3. You wouldn't? Civilization hinges upon access to resources. Food, Oil, Water, Copper, Rubber, it doesn't really matter what you call it. There is a difference between advocating Imperial conquest and colonization and recognizing the importance of resources and the need to ensure that they do not fall into the wrong hands. I'm perfectly willing to say it was in the interests of the United States, and the world, that the oil and natural gas of the Persian Gulf did not fall under the exclusive control of Saddam Hussein.
    Sherman, I appreciate your response. I want to do it justice and I will respond later today. So far it's been a Monday and all that that means.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf



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