View Poll Results: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

Voters
61. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, we screwed it up, and we're going to pay a heavy price)

    28 45.90%
  • They asked for it!

    0 0%
  • It wasn't just us, we had help.

    14 22.95%
  • No, it would have come to this point even without our involvement.

    10 16.39%
  • Other.

    9 14.75%
Page 11 of 12 FirstFirst ... 9101112 LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 112

Thread: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?[W:51***]

  1. #101
    Guru
    Smeagol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Last Seen
    02-19-17 @ 10:35 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,147

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?[W:51***]

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    I think we have, and for decades to come. For good or for bad, and as imperfect as it was, it was somewhat stable. Now, it's chaos.

    Discuss.
    They are the type of place that would have been screwed up anyway but we added fuel to the fire.

    All by themselves:

    Honor killings
    Public executions
    Women treated like dirt
    Assad, Ghadaffi (we were pretty much hands of Syria and Libya)
    Female genital mutilations
    Christian persecution
    Children forced to marry crusty old farts, some dying of blood loss trauma on the wedding nights
    Forced arranged marriages sometime with relatives
    Dictatorships (the ones we didn't install)
    OPEC nations ripping the US off where the privileged live high on the camel while the average person lives in poverty
    Xenophobic culture

    With our help

    Militarization in many regions especially Iraq
    Support for countries with obscene human rights records due to oil dependency
    Hypocritical foreign policy toward Iran in the 1950s. "Making the world safe for democracy" so we overthrow the democratic government and install a dictatorship leading to the Ayatollahs.
    Enrichment of homicidal dictators. Saddam Hussein thought the world of Reagan.
    Ineffective in influencing Saudi Arabia to pursue peaceful democratic reform to look more like Turkey while making them a regional economic and military powerhouse.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  2. #102
    Guru
    PIPEWRENCH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,687

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    "That is the facts like it or not. A bully can only push around a large group of people if they let him. Thats reality."


    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    That's not facts, it's flat-out BS. Learn basic history and current events.
    35 million people live in Iraq. Highest estimate of ISSI members in Iraq and Syria maybe 200 thousand. Just like the bully a few people are pushing around a lot people. 1 ISSI bully is intimidating 170 people. The odds are the number of people being intimidated are much higher. That pretty much proves my assessment of the situation. A bully can only push around a large group of people if they let them. Those are the facts.

  3. #103
    Guru
    sawdust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    03-04-16 @ 08:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,177

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by PIPEWRENCH View Post
    "That is the facts like it or not. A bully can only push around a large group of people if they let him. Thats reality."




    35 million people live in Iraq. Highest estimate of ISSI members in Iraq and Syria maybe 200 thousand. Just like the bully a few people are pushing around a lot people. 1 ISSI bully is intimidating 170 people. The odds are the number of people being intimidated are much higher. That pretty much proves my assessment of the situation. A bully can only push around a large group of people if they let them. Those are the facts.
    It's not quite that simple. Muslims are divided into two tribes, Sunni and Shia. The muslim world is 85% Sunni. ISIS is Sunni. They move into Sunni with little local resistance. Malaki, the American puppet that Obama counted on to keep order in Iraq was Shia and he eliminated most of the Sunni commanders from their military and installed incompetent cronies. Thats why ISIS has been able to steamroll it's way through Iraq with relative ease.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  4. #104
    Guru
    PIPEWRENCH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,687

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    It's not quite that simple. Muslims are divided into two tribes, Sunni and Shia. The muslim world is 85% Sunni. ISIS is Sunni. They move into Sunni with little local resistance. Malaki, the American puppet that Obama counted on to keep order in Iraq was Shia and he eliminated most of the Sunni commanders from their military and installed incompetent cronies. Thats why ISIS has been able to steamroll it's way through Iraq with relative ease.
    Well if 85% support ISSI then Cowboy Bush and take it to the bank Obama have succeeded in bringing a democratic government to the Middle East. This is what they both stand up in front of the World and claim they are spreading. Democracy though out the world. A democracy is a form of government where the majority decide the law of the land. How was it put in one quote. A democratic government is a government where 85% of the people can vote away the rights and freedom of 15% or the minority of the people as well as the individual. Looks like our work is done there. We have succeeded to bring democracy to that part of the world just as Bush and Obama promised. Bring the troops home. All is well. We need to set up a democracy here and get rid of that pesky Constitution and the out of date Bill of Rights.

  5. #105
    Guru
    sawdust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    03-04-16 @ 08:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,177

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by PIPEWRENCH View Post
    Well if 85% support ISSI then Cowboy Bush and take it to the bank Obama have succeeded in bringing a democratic government to the Middle East. This is what they both stand up in front of the World and claim they are spreading. Democracy though out the world. A democracy is a form of government where the majority decide the law of the land. How was it put in one quote. A democratic government is a government where 85% of the people can vote away the rights and freedom of 15% or the minority of the people as well as the individual. Looks like our work is done there. We have succeeded to bring democracy to that part of the world just as Bush and Obama promised. Bring the troops home. All is well. We need to set up a democracy here and get rid of that pesky Constitution and the out of date Bill of Rights.
    Eighty five percent of Muslims are Sinni but not all support ISIS. Saudi Arabia is Sunni and they don't support ISIS because ISIS would oppose the monarchy.

    It's a western mistake to believe that cultures that don't have western values would support western style government. I don't personally know if Bush tried to install a democracy or republican style of government in Iraq but they operate more effectively under a strong dictator who is able to use power to balance tribal differences. The entire notion if nation building is something we should forget. I no longer subscribe to the if you broke it you own it theory. I once met a young man on his way to West Point. I asked him what his major was. He told me economics. I asked him why economics. He told me that if our army took out a government they would need economists to help rebuild it. Personally I think new government should form organically.

    With respect to your comment about the constitution and bill of rights. No.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  6. #106
    Traveler

    Jack Hays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Reston, Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,200
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    How the Middle East Fell Apart - George Friedman, Stratfor

    ". . . Today, the term Middle East, to the extent that it means anything, refers to the Muslim-dominated countries west of Afghanistan and along the North African shore. With the exception of Turkey and Iran, the region is predominantly Arab and predominantly Muslim. Within this region, the British created political entities that were modeled on European nation-states. The British shaped the Arabian Peninsula, which had been inhabited by tribes forming complex coalitions, into Saudi Arabia, a state based on one of these tribes, the Sauds. The British also created Iraq and crafted Egypt into a united monarchy. Quite independent of the British, Turkey and Iran shaped themselves into secular nation-states.

    This defined the two fault lines of the Middle East. The first was between European secularism and Islam. The Cold War, when the Soviets involved themselves deeply in the region, accelerated the formation of this fault line. One part of the region was secular, socialist and built around the military. Another part, particularly focused on the Arabian Peninsula, was Islamist, traditionalist and royalist. The latter was pro-Western in general, and the former - particularly the Arab parts - was pro-Soviet. It was more complex than this, of course, but this distinction gives us a reasonable framework.
    The second fault line was between the states that had been created and the underlying reality of the region. The states in Europe generally conformed to the definition of nations in the 20th century. The states created by the Europeans in the Middle East did not. There was something at a lower level and at a higher level. At the lower level were the tribes, clans and ethnic groups that not only made up the invented states but also were divided by the borders. The higher level was broad religious loyalties to Islam and to the major movements of Islam, Shiism and Suniism that laid a transnational claim on loyalty. Add to this the pan-Arab movement initiated by former Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, who argued that the Arab states should be united into a single Arab nation. . . ."
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  7. #107
    Guru
    PIPEWRENCH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,687

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Eighty five percent of Muslims are Sinni but not all support ISIS. Saudi Arabia is Sunni and they don't support ISIS because ISIS would oppose the monarchy.

    It's a western mistake to believe that cultures that don't have western values would support western style government. I don't personally know if Bush tried to install a democracy or republican style of government in Iraq but they operate more effectively under a strong dictator who is able to use power to balance tribal differences. The entire notion if nation building is something we should forget. I no longer subscribe to the if you broke it you own it theory. I once met a young man on his way to West Point. I asked him what his major was. He told me economics. I asked him why economics. He told me that if our army took out a government they would need economists to help rebuild it. Personally I think new government should form organically.

    With respect to your comment about the constitution and bill of rights. No.
    My comment was satire.

    I am sick of our presidents referring to our government as a democracy. For me it is the constitution that protects the rights and freedom of the people as well as the individual.

    I think it should be near impossible to vote away or restrict rights by any means.

    If 99% of the people vote that slavery is OK it should not become law because it violates the rights of the individual. I don't care if we elect a congress, senate, and president that would OK it it is still wrong.

    The constitution should be left alone when it comes to rights. We do not need to keep making changes. Unless it is to establish more rights and freedom. Restricting rights is always a step in the wrong direction.

    I think a jury should look at each case and judge it on the facts of the case. If you yell fire in a movie theater a jury should decide whether you exercised your right of freedom of speech or went too far and have violated the patrons right to watch the movie. While most people think this is cut and dry almost every case has lots of gray. Example:
    Is the place on fire, did he see or smell smoke, was someone smoking in the bathroom, did the popcorn burn, or is a wire smoldering in the wall. We cannot write a law for the infinite number of possible scenarios and we shouldn't try.

  8. #108
    Guru
    sawdust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    03-04-16 @ 08:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,177

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by PIPEWRENCH View Post
    My comment was satire.

    I am sick of our presidents referring to our government as a democracy. For me it is the constitution that protects the rights and freedom of the people as well as the individual.

    I think it should be near impossible to vote away or restrict rights by any means.

    If 99% of the people vote that slavery is OK it should not become law because it violates the rights of the individual. I don't care if we elect a congress, senate, and president that would OK it it is still wrong.

    The constitution should be left alone when it comes to rights. We do not need to keep making changes. Unless it is to establish more rights and freedom. Restricting rights is always a step in the wrong direction.

    I think a jury should look at each case and judge it on the facts of the case. If you yell fire in a movie theater a jury should decide whether you exercised your right of freedom of speech or went too far and have violated the patrons right to watch the movie. While most people think this is cut and dry almost every case has lots of gray. Example:
    Is the place on fire, did he see or smell smoke, was someone smoking in the bathroom, did the popcorn burn, or is a wire smoldering in the wall. We cannot write a law for the infinite number of possible scenarios and we shouldn't try.
    John Adams, John Stewart Mill and Alexis DeToqueville referred to democracy as the tyranny of the majority. That's why our republic has a separation of power.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  9. #109
    Guru
    PIPEWRENCH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,687

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    John Adams, John Stewart Mill and Alexis DeToqueville referred to democracy as the tyranny of the majority. That's why our republic has a separation of power.
    The separation of power was a great idea in its day. Unfortunately it no longer exist in a 2 party system that is funded and controlled by the 1%. This same 1% also owns the media from network TV to the local newspapers including the information released to them. The 2 parties funded and controlled by the 1% now control The presidency, both congress and the senate, as well as the judicial system. We are left with the illusion of choice. The only part of our government still under control of the people is the jury. Even the jury is now being circumvented by the process of selection, moving the location of the trial, and appealing unfavorable verdicts to a higher court. The ability of a jury to use nullification to not find guilt in cases where the jury believes the law is wrong or does not apply is being taken away from the people.

  10. #110
    Sage
    Ahlevah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Flyoverland
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,423

    Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?[W:51***]

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?
    The Middle East was screwed up long before the U.S. came onto the scene. It started getting screwed up when Islam split in various factions. Then the victorious imperial European powers, especially Britain, carved up the Ottoman Empire in the wake of WWI. Borders were set not based on Woodrow Wilson's idea of self-determination, but political expediency and the spoils of war. The Ottoman Turks weren't exactly benevolent landlords either during the time they controlled large swaths of it.
    Нава́льный 2018

Page 11 of 12 FirstFirst ... 9101112 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •