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Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

Is slavery always wrong all of the time?

  • Yes. It's always wrong.

    Votes: 34 77.3%
  • Forced labor is appropriate under some circumstances.

    Votes: 8 18.2%
  • I can't decide. I'm a human tower of jello. Lead me around like the sheep i am.

    Votes: 2 4.5%

  • Total voters
    44
AMENDMENT XIII
Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.

Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.

Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
 
Those three things are conditions that most slaves have but that is not what makes a slave a slave. That prisoner is not property to be bought or sold, his sentence is fixed and handed down by the government and will end so long as it is not a life sentence, he still has all the rights and liberties equal to any other person with the exception that some have been denied for a fixed period by due process of law.

Your question asking if forced labor is ever justified is an intriguing one, but equating slavery and forced labor is wrong. They are not the same thing and should not be treated that way.

I disagree. I think dancing around the semantics keeps us from tackling the issue with any clarity.

The slavery we had in the United States was called "chattel slavery," it was race-based, and it was multi-generational. Slaves had some rights, but not very many.

That type of slavery is wrong. But that's not the only type of slavery out there.

However, if you're more comfortable with the term, we can just talk about "forced labor" from now on.
 
I disagree. I think dancing around the semantics keeps us from tackling the issue with any clarity.

The slavery we had in the United States was called "chattel slavery," it was race-based, and it was multi-generational. Slaves had some rights, but not very many.

That type of slavery is wrong. But that's not the only type of slavery out there.

However, if you're more comfortable with the term, we can just talk about "forced labor" from now on.

Uhmm what other kinds of slavery are you talking about?
 
We're all indoctrinated to believe, especially here in America, that slavery is evil and wrong, and should be illegal 100% of the time no matter what.

Not one to blindly follow what I'm taught, I thought about it for a while, and, while 99% of the time, slavery is wrong, I can make a case that sometimes, it's justified.



Now let me make one point before people get their panties in a bunch: I'm not advocating race-based slavery (take off your USA glasses, slavery throughout most of human history has not been based on race). I believe that all people are created equal and that everyone should be given equal opportunity to succeed and to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.


That said.... what happens when someone screws up? Here are some examples of people who I think could justifiably be forced to work for someone else:

1.) The nonviolent career criminal. Rather than pay to house and feed him and put him through "crime school" (ie jail), he should be forced in to providing productive labor.

2.) The welfare queen. Rather than give money away to people who would rather sit and collect money and live off the government tit, shouldn't they be forced to earn their keep like the rest of us?

3.) The juvenile delinquent. Rather than put them through "crime school" (ie jail), some forced labor and discipline could do these kids good.

4.) The white collar criminal. Run a ponzi scheme? Cheat on your taxes? Make them pick oranges in the California sun for a few years. That'll make white collar criminals think twice.



I'll leave it at that for now. What are your thoughts?

1.) and 4.) pretty much all qualify under the auspices of penal labor. 3.) already exists in the form of any number of "scared straight" programs, and troubled youth camps.

Where 2.) is concerned, while I am certainly in favor of a more "quid pro quo" oriented Welfare model, I think full on "slavery" is taking things a bit far.

In any case, I think slavery, as an economic model, had its time and place in the sun. That time is well past.

Does it necessarily have to be "evil?" I don't think so. However, it often is all the same, simply due to the flagrant abuses of power and questionable views of human life to which such systems tend to so readily lend themselves.
 
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The Thirteenth Amendment, which outlawed slavery in this nation, contains a notable exception.

  1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
  2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

In theory, I agree with this exception. I can envision a degree of criminality by which one would forfeit his humanity, and I would find no injustice in turning such a person, on proper conviction for such criminality, into a piece of property that may be sold and bought and in every way used as a slave. The Thirteenth Amendment does not prohibit this.

In practice, it probably wouldn't work. Someone of such a degree of criminality as to deserve slavery would probably be too dangerous to allow even that degree of freedom or access to other people.
 
Semantics. A prisoner working on a chain gang or hammering out license plates is not a free man. He's not working willingly. He can't come and go as he pleases.

For all intents and purposes, he's a slave of the state.

In this case, the distinction is important. A "slave" who's a "slave" because he broke the law probably deserves to be a slave. Someone who's born into it likely doesn't. We need to distinguish the two. Therefore, one's a prisoner on inmate, the other's a slave.
 
IQ's should be taken into account as well...
 
Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

Under who's morals, ethics and values?

If you were to say Society's, then yes it is wrong at this time.
That doesn't mean that society will not change is own morals, ethics and values at some point in the future.


If you were to say it was determined by an individual's or a group's collective morals, ethics and values, then yes it could be depending on their own beliefs.
Moral relativism.
 
Under certain circumstances.

I personally have a problem with our bankruptcy laws and our overall outlook in debt forgiveness. I personally feel that if a person is indebted to you, has no means to repay, and some spare time that they should work for the debt. Now this doesn't necessarily mean working directly for the owed but a court appointed job would suffice. In my opinion in many cases our bankruptcy laws are nothing short of legal theft.
 
We're all indoctrinated to believe, especially here in America, that slavery is evil and wrong, and should be illegal 100% of the time no matter what.

Not one to blindly follow what I'm taught, I thought about it for a while, and, while 99% of the time, slavery is wrong, I can make a case that sometimes, it's justified.



Now let me make one point before people get their panties in a bunch: I'm not advocating race-based slavery (take off your USA glasses, slavery throughout most of human history has not been based on race). I believe that all people are created equal and that everyone should be given equal opportunity to succeed and to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.


That said.... what happens when someone screws up? Here are some examples of people who I think could justifiably be forced to work for someone else:

1.) The nonviolent career criminal. Rather than pay to house and feed him and put him through "crime school" (ie jail), he should be forced in to providing productive labor.

2.) The welfare queen. Rather than give money away to people who would rather sit and collect money and live off the government tit, shouldn't they be forced to earn their keep like the rest of us?

3.) The juvenile delinquent. Rather than put them through "crime school" (ie jail), some forced labor and discipline could do these kids good.

4.) The white collar criminal. Run a ponzi scheme? Cheat on your taxes? Make them pick oranges in the California sun for a few years. That'll make white collar criminals think twice.



I'll leave it at that for now. What are your thoughts?

Jesus Facepalm.jpg
 
The Thirteenth Amendment, which outlawed slavery in this nation, contains a notable exception.

  1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
  2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

In theory, I agree with this exception. I can envision a degree of criminality by which one would forfeit his humanity, and I would find no injustice in turning such a person, on proper conviction for such criminality, into a piece of property that may be sold and bought and in every way used as a slave. The Thirteenth Amendment does not prohibit this.

In practice, it probably wouldn't work. Someone of such a degree of criminality as to deserve slavery would probably be too dangerous to allow even that degree of freedom or access to other people.

I think this exception is meant to apply to forced labour by convicted criminals, which is not quite the same thing as slavery.
 
We're all indoctrinated to believe, especially here in America, that slavery is evil and wrong, and should be illegal 100% of the time no matter what.

Not one to blindly follow what I'm taught, I thought about it for a while, and, while 99% of the time, slavery is wrong, I can make a case that sometimes, it's justified.



Now let me make one point before people get their panties in a bunch: I'm not advocating race-based slavery (take off your USA glasses, slavery throughout most of human history has not been based on race). I believe that all people are created equal and that everyone should be given equal opportunity to succeed and to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.


That said.... what happens when someone screws up? Here are some examples of people who I think could justifiably be forced to work for someone else:

1.) The nonviolent career criminal. Rather than pay to house and feed him and put him through "crime school" (ie jail), he should be forced in to providing productive labor.

2.) The welfare queen. Rather than give money away to people who would rather sit and collect money and live off the government tit, shouldn't they be forced to earn their keep like the rest of us?

3.) The juvenile delinquent. Rather than put them through "crime school" (ie jail), some forced labor and discipline could do these kids good.

4.) The white collar criminal. Run a ponzi scheme? Cheat on your taxes? Make them pick oranges in the California sun for a few years. That'll make white collar criminals think twice.



I'll leave it at that for now. What are your thoughts?

None of those are examples of slavery. In no instance is a person rendered down to property, but is simply asked to repay a debt.
 
That's not true. Forced labor in prison is treated as an exception to slavery basically everywhere in the world. The dictionary definition is a system in which people are treated as property. People do not generally consider prisoners to be slaves. By practice, common usage, and definition, that is not slavery.

I consider it slavery... to the government at least... what now? ad populam?
 
We're all indoctrinated to believe, especially here in America, that slavery is evil and wrong, and should be illegal 100% of the time no matter what.

Not one to blindly follow what I'm taught, I thought about it for a while, and, while 99% of the time, slavery is wrong, I can make a case that sometimes, it's justified.



Now let me make one point before people get their panties in a bunch: I'm not advocating race-based slavery (take off your USA glasses, slavery throughout most of human history has not been based on race). I believe that all people are created equal and that everyone should be given equal opportunity to succeed and to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.


That said.... what happens when someone screws up? Here are some examples of people who I think could justifiably be forced to work for someone else:

1.) The nonviolent career criminal. Rather than pay to house and feed him and put him through "crime school" (ie jail), he should be forced in to providing productive labor.

2.) The welfare queen. Rather than give money away to people who would rather sit and collect money and live off the government tit, shouldn't they be forced to earn their keep like the rest of us?

3.) The juvenile delinquent. Rather than put them through "crime school" (ie jail), some forced labor and discipline could do these kids good.

4.) The white collar criminal. Run a ponzi scheme? Cheat on your taxes? Make them pick oranges in the California sun for a few years. That'll make white collar criminals think twice.



I'll leave it at that for now. What are your thoughts?

With exception of welfare, the issues you mentioned are punishment, not slavery, meted out by government for law or rule braking.. Welfare is not slavery, it's optional participation in a social program.

Make a case for real slavery where one person is forced to labor for another and the worker is not free to leave the relationship.
 
Indentured servitude is another one I forgot about, but I agree it should have its place in society as well. Actually, it's a great alternative to welfare and illegal immigration.

Indentured servitude is immoral because it takes away peoples fundamental rights... It is impossible to sign your fundamental rights away, even if you want to...

you can't legitimately forfeit those rights, because it would always be a crime for others to violate them, no matter what contract you sign.
 
Someone owning you as legal property of and are forced to obey your "owner(s)" is never justified period.
 
I threw up in my mouth at the title of this thread.
 
Slavery is any form of forced labor. Don't let semantics cloud your judgement.

No, slavery is the act of owning another human being as property. Try again.
 
Forced labor is forced labor. We call that "slavery"

Most of the healthy inmates in the joint want to be able to work a job. It makes the calendar move faster.
 
Most of the healthy inmates in the joint want to be able to work a job. It makes the calendar move faster.

Good, I say make them work. If they take a liking to working for a living, maybe that will stay with them when they're released.

No need to rob the bank when you own the bank.
 
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