View Poll Results: Is slavery always wrong all of the time?

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  • Yes. It's always wrong.

    34 77.27%
  • Forced labor is appropriate under some circumstances.

    8 18.18%
  • I can't decide. I'm a human tower of jello. Lead me around like the sheep i am.

    2 4.55%
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Thread: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But forced labor under the U.S. penal system isn't slavery. The prison system doesn't "own" the prisoners. They've merely been commissioned to "watch over the prisoners". Now, while it's true that the inmates do perform labor which can be extremely tedious, it's still not slavery. The warden doesn't own the inmates. The corrections officers don't own the inmates. Not even the state owns the inmates. They are still individuals with rights (as hard as it may be for some, including myself, to accept or even acknowledge), but they are not owned by anyone. I can assure you that if a corrections officers beats and inmate, HE will soon find himself behind bars. Same goes for the warden who is found to have allowed mistreatment of inmates under his supervision.

    You've got it quite twisted, my friend. Please rethink your premise.
    I didn't say the warden owns the inmates, but I would argue that the state itself owns the inmates. The inmates are not free men. They can't go home if they want to. They can't decide not to go to work on the chain gang. They can't order a pizza with their wages. Slave owners are always commissioned to "watch over" their slaves, that's how they butter up the language.

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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Forced labor is forced labor. We call that "slavery"
    Some slavery can be forced labour but not all forced labour is slavery

  3. #23
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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Semantics. A prisoner working on a chain gang or hammering out license plates is not a free man. He's not working willingly. He can't come and go as he pleases.

    For all intents and purposes, he's a slave of the state.
    Those three things are conditions that most slaves have but that is not what makes a slave a slave. That prisoner is not property to be bought or sold, his sentence is fixed and handed down by the government and will end so long as it is not a life sentence, he still has all the rights and liberties equal to any other person with the exception that some have been denied for a fixed period by due process of law.

    Your question asking if forced labor is ever justified is an intriguing one, but equating slavery and forced labor is wrong. They are not the same thing and should not be treated that way.
    There should be Instant Runoff Voting

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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    Black people were put on auction blocks half naked and poked and prodded as cattle.

    They were denied citizenship.

    They were raped and tortured.

    They were property. They had no rights.

    Families were torn apart, children ripped from mothers arms on birth, and children of slaves were automatically slaves. For generation upon generation here in the US.

    That is not the same thing as penal labor.
    Right, that's called "chattel slavery," and it's just one subset of a larger concept. Chattel slavery is wrong, especially as it was practiced in the US in our early days.

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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    That's why we have jails, prisons and insane asylums.
    But a lot of the people I am referring to are not criminals nor are they insane... in fact, many criminals are very smart and need direction, not control.

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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    AMENDMENT XIII
    Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.

    Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.

    Section 1.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    Section 2.
    Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    Those three things are conditions that most slaves have but that is not what makes a slave a slave. That prisoner is not property to be bought or sold, his sentence is fixed and handed down by the government and will end so long as it is not a life sentence, he still has all the rights and liberties equal to any other person with the exception that some have been denied for a fixed period by due process of law.

    Your question asking if forced labor is ever justified is an intriguing one, but equating slavery and forced labor is wrong. They are not the same thing and should not be treated that way.
    I disagree. I think dancing around the semantics keeps us from tackling the issue with any clarity.

    The slavery we had in the United States was called "chattel slavery," it was race-based, and it was multi-generational. Slaves had some rights, but not very many.

    That type of slavery is wrong. But that's not the only type of slavery out there.

    However, if you're more comfortable with the term, we can just talk about "forced labor" from now on.

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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I disagree. I think dancing around the semantics keeps us from tackling the issue with any clarity.

    The slavery we had in the United States was called "chattel slavery," it was race-based, and it was multi-generational. Slaves had some rights, but not very many.

    That type of slavery is wrong. But that's not the only type of slavery out there.

    However, if you're more comfortable with the term, we can just talk about "forced labor" from now on.
    Uhmm what other kinds of slavery are you talking about?

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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Uhmm what other kinds of slavery are you talking about?
    Bonded labor, conscription, penal labor.

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    Re: Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    We're all indoctrinated to believe, especially here in America, that slavery is evil and wrong, and should be illegal 100% of the time no matter what.

    Not one to blindly follow what I'm taught, I thought about it for a while, and, while 99% of the time, slavery is wrong, I can make a case that sometimes, it's justified.



    Now let me make one point before people get their panties in a bunch: I'm not advocating race-based slavery (take off your USA glasses, slavery throughout most of human history has not been based on race). I believe that all people are created equal and that everyone should be given equal opportunity to succeed and to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.


    That said.... what happens when someone screws up? Here are some examples of people who I think could justifiably be forced to work for someone else:

    1.) The nonviolent career criminal. Rather than pay to house and feed him and put him through "crime school" (ie jail), he should be forced in to providing productive labor.

    2.) The welfare queen. Rather than give money away to people who would rather sit and collect money and live off the government tit, shouldn't they be forced to earn their keep like the rest of us?

    3.) The juvenile delinquent. Rather than put them through "crime school" (ie jail), some forced labor and discipline could do these kids good.

    4.) The white collar criminal. Run a ponzi scheme? Cheat on your taxes? Make them pick oranges in the California sun for a few years. That'll make white collar criminals think twice.



    I'll leave it at that for now. What are your thoughts?
    1.) and 4.) pretty much all qualify under the auspices of penal labor. 3.) already exists in the form of any number of "scared straight" programs, and troubled youth camps.

    Where 2.) is concerned, while I am certainly in favor of a more "quid pro quo" oriented Welfare model, I think full on "slavery" is taking things a bit far.

    In any case, I think slavery, as an economic model, had its time and place in the sun. That time is well past.

    Does it necessarily have to be "evil?" I don't think so. However, it often is all the same, simply due to the flagrant abuses of power and questionable views of human life to which such systems tend to so readily lend themselves.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 05-27-15 at 09:04 PM.

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