View Poll Results: Is Elizabeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

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Thread: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    I'll bet no one read the bill that voted for it. Maybe some aid did, but some obnoxious 2,500 page bill now way anyone in the house or senate read it.
    Some certainly did personally read it, but yeah, it is the staff reading it that really matters. Not just "some aid" though, they have legislative lawyers who read the bills, and analyze the implications given the relevant statutes, regulations and court decisions. They also have subject matter experts that read the bills and analyze the policy implications. Those people each spend days working out exactly what it will do from a lot of different angles, talking to other experts, etc., then they present the Senator or Representative with a memo, which is many times the length of the actual bill, describing all those implications, and that memo is really what the Senator or Representative goes off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Hell Obama was telling lies about the bill all along until it was public that people were losing their DR and their insurance.
    The ACA didn't actually require anybody to change plans or doctors. In order to conclude that that was a lie, somebody needs to convince themselves that what they thought he meant was not just that the ACA wouldn't require you to change plans or doctors, but that the ACA would somehow prevent private insurers from cancelling plans and private doctors from changing plans. If you thought that was what he meant, yeah, that didn't happen, but is that really what anybody thought he meant? Seems pretty far fetched to me. And, regardless, even if you did believe that he was saying that was in the ACA, wouldn't you actually prefer that it not do that? So being upset that it doesn't basically nationalize health insurance companies and doctors to keep them from changing anything is also a bit suspect, when you wouldn't really want it to do that anyways, is also a bit suspect...

    I dunno. It's one of those gaffes. It plays well in firing up the Republican base and they're more than willing to refrain from really thinking it through, so the Republicans use it, but it isn't an actual substantive issue.
    Last edited by tuhaybey; 06-02-15 at 04:58 PM.

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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    She wasn't addressing the Senate, she was talking about the Senate. I don't remember where she was speaking.
    Then there should be a video of her talking about the senate. The video does not exist because she was not talking about the senate. It's why she used the word "we".


    Again, just buying into whatever conspiracy theory comes along because it matches your emotional state about distrusting somebody or whatever is idiotic. That's how you constantly get tricked. They can just make up whatever they want about groups you don't trust and you believe it... Quit being lazy. Just look it up. If Limbaugh tells you some bill says something obviously ridiculous, don't just believe him, google the bill and read it yourself. Do that the next 3 times your right wing sources make some claim about what a bill says. All three times they will turn out to have been lying. Then you won't need to check again by the fourth time.
    Calling it a conspiracy theory just because it does not agree with your political beliefs does not make it a conspiracy theory.Anti-2nd amendment trash will claim all day that gun control bills do not infringe on the 2nd amendment.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Then there should be a video of her talking about the senate. The video does not exist because she was not talking about the senate. It's why she used the word "we".
    You aren't listening to what I am telling you. The bill was not in the House. Period. It was in the Senate. And nothing about the bill was secret or something, it was all public record, published all over the place... And, again, it isn't even possible to pass a bill without knowing what is in it. Again- they have to circulate the print version, then read it aloud TWO TIMES before they can even vote on it...

    Don't make me repeat all that again. Stop and read it over carefully, then let me know if you have any further questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Calling it a conspiracy theory just because it does not agree with your political beliefs does not make it a conspiracy theory.Anti-2nd amendment trash will claim all day that gun control bills do not infringe on the 2nd amendment.
    Again, that's just plain dumb to make up a conspiracy theory about what a bill says... Again- the text of the bills is public. What do you not understand? If you say "I think this bill says X" and the bill doesn't say that, you just look stupid. There is no fuzzy "I think it says this and you think it says that" area where conspiracy nuts can hide. The conspiracy theories are just plain wrong as anybody with a brain can immediately see. It's the worst, dumbest, kind of conspiracy theory out there...

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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    Some certainly did personally read it, but yeah, it is the staff reading it that really matters. Not just "some aid" though, they have legislative lawyers who read the bills, and analyze the implications given the relevant statutes, regulations and court decisions. They also have subject matter experts that read the bills and analyze the policy implications. Those people each spend days working out exactly what it will do from a lot of different angles, talking to other experts, etc., then they present the Senator or Representative with a memo, which is many times the length of the actual bill, describing all those implications, and that memo is really what the Senator or Representative goes off.
    With that said, with all the scrutiny the bill went through the Supreme court has no choice but to rule against Obamacare regarding the states and the subsidy issue.


    The ACA didn't actually require anybody to change plans or doctors. In order to conclude that that was a lie, somebody needs to convince themselves that what they thought he meant was not just that the ACA wouldn't require you to change plans or doctors, but that the ACA would somehow prevent private insurers from cancelling plans and private doctors from changing plans. If you thought that was what he meant, yeah, that didn't happen, but is that really what anybody thought he meant? Seems pretty far fetched to me. And, regardless, even if you did believe that he was saying that was in the ACA, wouldn't you actually prefer that it not do that? So being upset that it doesn't basically nationalize health insurance companies and doctors to keep them from changing anything is also a bit suspect, when you wouldn't really want it to do that anyways, is also a bit suspect...

    I dunno. It's one of those gaffes. It plays well in firing up the Republican base and they're more than willing to refrain from really thinking it through, so the Republicans use it, but it isn't an actual substantive issue.
    You sure go out of your way to defend a proven liar, remember Obama got the liar of the year award. You will convince no one except yourself.
    Last edited by Born Free; 06-03-15 at 12:36 PM.
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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    IMO, very few of the American public are qualified to approve/disapprove of any trade deal ..They simply have not the time nor the facilities .. nor the knowledge ..Congress, OTOH, does - its what they do .
    most of the people in congress voting for any trade deal have no idea what is in it, like the ACA...these trade deals are written by a few people who know its in and outs.

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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    With that said, with all the scrutiny the bill went through the Supreme court has no choice but to rule against Obamacare regarding the states and the subsidy issue.
    I'm not sure what the Supreme Court will do. Normally, judges of all leanings read statutes to mean what they were intended to mean, and to read them in a logical way where the whole statute makes sense. They don't normally try to look for technicalities and gotchas where legislators used the wrong word or whatever. Doing that would be putting form over substance, which just about every court in the country has gone on at length against. The only exception, usually, is that they will read a criminal statute as favorably as possible for the defendant.

    But, this is a very strange court we have right now. Three things characterize the conservative majority- 1) they favor corporations over people in every instance, 2) they are incredibly susceptible to empty technicalities and legal trickery and 3) they are partisan Republicans. So, this is probably the most likely court to put form over substance and rule against a Democratic bill that corporations don't like that we've had in many generations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    You sure go out of your way to defend a proven liar, remember Obama got the liar of the year award. You will convince no one except yourself.
    It's one of the many, many, things that all Republicans perceive as objective proof that the left is evil and that all Democrats think is just Republican silliness.

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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    I'm not sure what the Supreme Court will do. Normally, judges of all leanings read statutes to mean what they were intended to mean, and to read them in a logical way where the whole statute makes sense. They don't normally try to look for technicalities and gotchas where legislators used the wrong word or whatever. Doing that would be putting form over substance, which just about every court in the country has gone on at length against. The only exception, usually, is that they will read a criminal statute as favorably as possible for the defendant.

    But, this is a very strange court we have right now. Three things characterize the conservative majority- 1) they favor corporations over people in every instance, 2) they are incredibly susceptible to empty technicalities and legal trickery and 3) they are partisan Republicans. So, this is probably the most likely court to put form over substance and rule against a Democratic bill that corporations don't like that we've had in many generations.
    I have to repeat, with all the scrutiny that you outlined the bill would have gone through, it is clear the meaning of the bill. Thus I predict the SC will rule against it.

    It's one of the many, many, things that all Republicans perceive as objective proof that the left is evil and that all Democrats think is just Republican silliness.
    It's no all Republicans for Pets sake, it was a total lie of the bill. Pure and simple, plus receiving the liar of the yr award. I have to admire your consistent loyalty to turn these lies into something that it isn't. But it doesn't work, does naive mean anything to you.
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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Is Elizabeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Yes
    No
    Maybe/other



    Warren: Trade Deal "Secret Because If Details Were Made Public Now, The Public Would Oppose It"

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/05/21/warren_trade_deal_secret_because_if_details_were_m ade_public_now_the_public_would_oppose_it.html



    I say yes she is correct. The only reason for keeping something secret is because you do not want others to know.If this trade deal was a good thing then I would think they would want everyone to know.They would not be trying to hide the details of this trade deal.
    The trade bill shows everything that's wrong with Washington. No piece of legislation should be secret. They should be debated in the open and the details vetted in the media. I would oppose any piece of secret legislation just on principle
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    I have to repeat, with all the scrutiny that you outlined the bill would have gone through, it is clear the meaning of the bill. Thus I predict the SC will rule against it.
    There isn't really anybody who honestly thinks that is what the statute is meant to mean. If they rule to strike the subsidies, it will be purely on the basis of a technicality about the wording. That would be pretty sad to see the Supreme Court stoop so low. That is an important job. It isn't meant to be petty game playing.

    Another aspect of this to remember is that killing the subsidies would create a major disaster both for the people of red states and for the Republican Party. Most of the 8 million people who would lose their healthcare are in red states and the blue states that don't have exchanges yet will just quickly set up state exchanges. So, the Republicans will need to choose between basically voting for the ACA despite all their previous ranting and getting subsidies back to the people they represent, or facing the fallout of taking health care away from millions of voters in their districts. The court would be hurting an awful lot of Republican individuals, putting the GOP in a very awkward spot politically and giving a lot of people an urgent reason to want to make sure that the next conservative Supreme Court Justice to retire is replaced with a liberal. I suspect Roberts at least won't be crazy enough to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    It's no all Republicans for Pets sake, it was a total lie of the bill. Pure and simple, plus receiving the liar of the yr award. I have to admire your consistent loyalty to turn these lies into something that it isn't. But it doesn't work, does naive mean anything to you.
    No, really only Republicans are up in arms about the supposed "lie". It's a pretty heavily manufactured sentiment really.

    The lie Democrats are up in arms about is the giant list of totally insane conspiracy theories and lies about the ACA that practically every Republican politician could not stop spouting off... We were going to have a doctor shortage and death panels. Costs were going to massively shoot up. Some even insisted that it was really a eugenics program... Nobody was going to sign up. Etc., etc. Those are all far more clear cut lies and far more off base predictions than Obama's statement. But, you're a Republican, so those don't even occur to you as being possible issues. But you see Obama's statement as a big deal somehow... Democrats don't share your perspective on that at all. The way we see it, the Republicans were caught red-handed in a huge string of totally insane lies and they now look like utterly dishonest fools.

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    Re: Is Elizibeth Warren about why the trade deal is kept secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    There isn't really anybody who honestly thinks that is what the statute is meant to mean. If they rule to strike the subsidies, it will be purely on the basis of a technicality about the wording. That would be pretty sad to see the Supreme Court stoop so low. That is an important job. It isn't meant to be petty game playing.
    You praised all the scrutiny the bill got, there is no technicality as you call it. It was deliberate to force the states to have an exchange. It backfired and the SC will rule against it. And now you have no control to fix it.

    Another aspect of this to remember is that killing the subsidies would create a major disaster both for the people of red states and for the Republican Party. Most of the 8 million people who would lose their healthcare are in red states and the blue states that don't have exchanges yet will just quickly set up state exchanges. So, the Republicans will need to choose between basically voting for the ACA despite all their previous ranting and getting subsidies back to the people they represent, or facing the fallout of taking health care away from millions of voters in their districts. The court would be hurting an awful lot of Republican individuals, putting the GOP in a very awkward spot politically and giving a lot of people an urgent reason to want to make sure that the next conservative Supreme Court Justice to retire is replaced with a liberal. I suspect Roberts at least won't be crazy enough to do that.
    Let me clear it up for you, the SC has no power to measure the results, it rules on the merits. And in this case it is clear the intention of the bill was to force states to have an exchange. But the best part is Obamacare is done, dead, no more. And that is the best thing of all.


    No, really only Republicans are up in arms about the supposed "lie". It's a pretty heavily manufactured sentiment really.
    Of course your a loyalist, and will believe anything Obama says and you believe every work Mrs Trustworthy Hillery says. That's what loyalist do "stand by your man" no matter how much he cheats.

    The lie Democrats are up in arms about is the giant list of totally insane conspiracy theories and lies about the ACA that practically every Republican politician could not stop spouting off... We were going to have a doctor shortage and death panels. Costs were going to massively shoot up. Some even insisted that it was really a eugenics program... Nobody was going to sign up. Etc., etc. Those are all far more clear cut lies and far more off base predictions than Obama's statement. But, you're a Republican, so those don't even occur to you as being possible issues. But you see Obama's statement as a big deal somehow... Democrats don't share your perspective on that at all. The way we see it, the Republicans were caught red-handed in a huge string of totally insane lies and they now look like utterly dishonest fools.
    Obamacare was presented as a complete lie. And I will cheer the day it is DEAD.
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