View Poll Results: Can a nation tax its way to prosperity?

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  • Yes

    7 11.48%
  • No

    44 72.13%
  • Other

    10 16.39%
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Thread: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

  1. #121
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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Keep watching China to find out.

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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganesh View Post
    I am interested in your concept of "core funding", as I'd say such ideas are highly subjective. What is core, secondary, or peripheral varies quite a bit according to political persuasion, and prevailing fashion. Basic medical care for citizens is, for example, core in Canada, and most other developed economies. In the US, it is not. In countries like Kenya, almost nothing is "core", in places like Sweden, almost everything is.

    Where I live there is a controversy right now over urban transit. Some are attempting to say this is peripheral, only to be had with surplus wealth. A great many urban planners, and economic thinkers, see this as highly flawed policy.

    In short, public policy and finance are only, and exactly, what we say they are. There is no money "left over", as taxation and revenue are in flux, and always in relationship with social priorities. We can always spend more in certain areas, and always less. It is a question of social goals, something that is often lost on libertarian advocates (I'm not saying you are one of those).

    The original question here asked about tax and prosperity. The answer is clear. Prosperity- for all, not a small percent of the population- began when communities took charge of their futures, in the form of social programs, and the oversight of elected representatives over the economy. The low tax regimes of the past were the wild west, were a Donald Trump would have been president, and the average worker would have been (and was) dirt poor by today's standards.

    The ultimate function of government is the welfare of the people. Otherwise, we might as well not have it. Send the tax man around. I'll pay.
    In my view, core functions are that which can only be provided by government and are for the benefit of all its citizens, regardless of their station in life, their wealth, and/or their personal status. Obvious examples are military and national security, education, healthcare, transportation/energy/municipal infrastructure, internal security/policing, etc. All are services and activities that benefit all citizens, not just a limited or targeted sector. Any government expenditure that seeks to pick winners and losers based on ideology or special interests is not a core function of government.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

  3. #123
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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    If you don't want to correct your contradictory statements, I'm fine with that. If you do not feel the meed to defend your argument, I fine with that too. If you do not wish to engage in debate at a debate forum, you are free to do that as well.
    FFS, get over yourself.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

  4. #124
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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    In my view, core functions are that which can only be provided by government and are for the benefit of all its citizens, regardless of their station in life, their wealth, and/or their personal status. Obvious examples are military and national security, education, healthcare, transportation/energy/municipal infrastructure, internal security/policing, etc. All are services and activities that benefit all citizens, not just a limited or targeted sector. Any government expenditure that seeks to pick winners and losers based on ideology or special interests is not a core function of government.
    Yet all those things you mention could be provided by private interest, and some are. But there is often a reason government steps up to the plate, and that is usually when community interest trumps individual interest, or at least perceived individual interest. The young and healthy might likely calls for cut backs in health expenditure, causing calamity to those who need it, which probably means the young themselves when they life makes its fragility known to them by a later date. The pacifist would starve the military, the hawk divert important funds from other areas to pump it up. The greens wouldn't want that new power station, but would want public transit. The good 'ol boys in fringe city would refuse to pay for public transit, as they love their SUVs......and on and on. Which way to pick? The answers are subjective, and so require some sort of public consensus, ie: elected representatives.

    Governments have been picking winners for some time now. Countries like the US and Britain decided to shift from agriculture to industry, and enacted the policies to allow that to happen. So to in later years, as places like Japan or S Korea insisted on high tariffs, and other measures that directed state resources to heavy industry, and hence made the societies we see there today. It wouldn't have happened otherwise, as it would have been much easier for those with funds to just buy what they wanted elsewhere. No need for a local factory. And the future is someone else's business.

    We have also seen examples of the private sector choosing "losers", and thereby squandering resources better spent elsewhere. Deifying the corporate world, while insisting government is all bungling bureaucracy, are ideas not born out by history. Management can be good or bad in either, but there is no assurance what so ever that private companies will naturally make the best pro-social choices. Just look at the work of the financial wise guys in the 2008 debacle, for one example.

    We need an involved referee, or we will get chaos.

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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    So the tax money President used to build the Federal interstate highway system didn't make the U.S. much more properous? The tax money spent on the space programs didn't make the U.S. more prosperous?
    What's been the return on "investment" of Welfare?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  6. #126
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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Consider the following quote from Winston Churchill:
    "We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
    The question / quote is deeply flawed.

    Excessive taxation will obviously cause issues for any economy.

    Insufficient taxation will, contrary to conservative mantras, will also harm an economy. A state cannot function without sufficient revenues; an economy cannot function without a functioning government.

    It is also incorrect to imagine that revenues collected as taxes are permanently destroyed, and that the economic effects of taxation are purely negative. E.g. the American government collects payroll taxes, and most of that goes to programs that directly spend money -- Social Security and Medicare. Most entitlement, safety net and infrastructure spending winds up aiding the economy, hence the Keynesian approach of using stimulus during recessions.

  7. #127
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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganesh View Post
    Yet all those things you mention could be provided by private interest, and some are. But there is often a reason government steps up to the plate, and that is usually when community interest trumps individual interest, or at least perceived individual interest. The young and healthy might likely calls for cut backs in health expenditure, causing calamity to those who need it, which probably means the young themselves when they life makes its fragility known to them by a later date. The pacifist would starve the military, the hawk divert important funds from other areas to pump it up. The greens wouldn't want that new power station, but would want public transit. The good 'ol boys in fringe city would refuse to pay for public transit, as they love their SUVs......and on and on. Which way to pick? The answers are subjective, and so require some sort of public consensus, ie: elected representatives.

    Governments have been picking winners for some time now. Countries like the US and Britain decided to shift from agriculture to industry, and enacted the policies to allow that to happen. So to in later years, as places like Japan or S Korea insisted on high tariffs, and other measures that directed state resources to heavy industry, and hence made the societies we see there today. It wouldn't have happened otherwise, as it would have been much easier for those with funds to just buy what they wanted elsewhere. No need for a local factory. And the future is someone else's business.

    We have also seen examples of the private sector choosing "losers", and thereby squandering resources better spent elsewhere. Deifying the corporate world, while insisting government is all bungling bureaucracy, are ideas not born out by history. Management can be good or bad in either, but there is no assurance what so ever that private companies will naturally make the best pro-social choices. Just look at the work of the financial wise guys in the 2008 debacle, for one example.

    We need an involved referee, or we will get chaos.
    I'm not sure what your point is. You asked what I considered core functions of government and I gave you a list and a generalization that any expenditure that picks winners and losers BASED ON IDEOLOGY OR SPECIAL INTERESTS isn't a core government function. I never claimed business was superior in all regards and I never claimed government was always bad. I did say that government has a place and that's related to the provision of services and facilities that by their very nature don't provide a profit margin or shouldn't provide a profit margin and thus lend themselves to private business interests. Nor did I claim that any particular ideology is better at governing these days, as it relates to what I consider core government function.

    My bottom line, as noted originally, was that conservatives do not oppose taxes going to fund these core government functions but we do oppose raising taxes when current levels of taxation are being wasted on non-core matters. Wipe out all the nonsense and if revenue is still too low to meet government's core responsibilities, then tax increases or other revenue generators are appropriate.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

  8. #128
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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post

    My bottom line, as noted originally, was that conservatives do not oppose taxes going to fund these core government functions but we do oppose raising taxes when current levels of taxation are being wasted on non-core matters. Wipe out all the nonsense and if revenue is still too low to meet government's core responsibilities, then tax increases or other revenue generators are appropriate.
    Again, with the contradictions, what "conservatives" view as "core" is driven by ideology, does create "winners and losers" especially since your lists of "core" do not include welfare for the very young and the very old. Further, the con tax policy used to fund this incomplete "core" also is ideologically driven, again choosing "winners and losers". This is all just rhetorical bs, smoke and mirrors, lipstick on a pig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    I am a medical provider. Try having the pressure of someones life in your hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  9. #129
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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Again, with the contradictions, what "conservatives" view as "core" is driven by ideology, does create "winners and losers" especially since your lists of "core" do not include welfare for the very young and the very old. Further, the con tax policy used to fund this incomplete "core" also is ideologically driven, again choosing "winners and losers". This is all just rhetorical bs, smoke and mirrors, lipstick on a pig.
    And yet, you continue to bastardize my comments, misrepresent them, and respond to my posts with your own BS. Can't find anyone else to annoy?
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Can A Nation Tax Itself Into Prosperity?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    And yet, you continue to bastardize my comments, misrepresent them, and respond to my posts with your own BS. Can't find anyone else to annoy?
    Instead of allowing my counter-arguments to emotionally upset you, perhaps you could instead....maybe....produce a well thought out fact based rational response....because otherwise......leaving your last retort as whining is considered a loss in debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    I am a medical provider. Try having the pressure of someones life in your hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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