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Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

  • Yes

    Votes: 36 41.4%

  • No

    Votes: 51 58.6%
  • Total voters
    87
Unrepresented said:
Rights are whatever you can defend, be it through individual strength or collective teamwork.
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Then how are people not entitled to the 'right' to self-defense? You claim we dont, that we MUST let a judge and jury decide.
 
Lursa said:
Then how are people not entitled to the 'right' to self-defense? You claim we dont, that we MUST let a judge and jury decide.
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I believe the judge and jury don't decide whether you have the right to self-defence, but whether or not your actions constitute self-defence, no?
 
TurtleDude said:
and that has ZERO, nada, ZILCH to do with the scope of the rights in the bill of rights
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Actually what it does it proves you presented a falsehood about the beliefs of Jefferson as stated in his famous statement about natural rights in the Declaration.

I will leave it to others to deduce why in the world would you do something so inherently intellectually dishonest.
 
TurtleDude said:
Does Roman Catholicism or Islam exist?

you are trying to apply one version of existence to a philosophy improperly in order to pretend that the bill of rights do not prevent the sort of government idiocy you crave
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That post makes no sense as a reply to what I wrote and you reproduced as the lead in.
 
Ahlevah said:
You're right. No one can prove you can't give away your right to pursue happiness or that you'd attempt to exercise it in a state of nature. I just accept it as common sense. (I could have called it "self-evident.") Perhaps you can prove the contrary with facts? I'd bet my left nut you can't. :2wave:
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I love terms like COMMON SENSE as substitutes to saying "well I really cannot prove what I claim to believe but its just _________ ____________".



I have no idea what you are asking me to prove since your statement about natural rights and the pursuit of happiness makes no sense.
 
Ahlevah said:
I just accept that when Jefferson wrote "all men are created equal" he spoke the truth and meant ALL MEN, even if he was a hypocrite. Look at this sentence from the passage I quoted earlier from his Notes on the State of Virginia:
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Tell it to Turtle as he keeps insisting it applied to only white men of property. What you seem to minimize by simply calling him a 'hypocrite' does not do justice to the actual events of Jeffersons life where he owned over 100 slaves for decades. that sort of actions goes far far far beyond mere hypocrisy. It shows he never believed the hollow words that others want to deceive themselves in believing matter more than actual daily actions for his entire adult life.
 
ernst barkmann said:
guy you seem to be looking for argument from me at every turn....but again BOOM! TO YOU.

The Rights of the Colonists

November 20, 1772


I. Natural Rights of the Colonists as Men.

Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these: First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature.
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Since you are NOT quoting from the Declaration - it is irrelevant and means nothing since that is what was being discussed as the clear statement of natural rights in our founding documents.
 
TurtleDude said:
and that has ZERO, nada, ZILCH to do with the scope of the rights in the bill of rights

you seem to think that because Jefferson didn't include slaves, that somehow means that Jefferson (who did NOT WRITE the Bill of RIghts) didn't believe in natural rights for citizens

completely disingenuous and bogus argument
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The only thing DISINGENUOUS is your continual pretending that Jefferson did not write the words ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and that they had rights including LIBERTY. And if you want to call your attempt at tat same intellectual fraud BOGUS - that is fine with me.
 
Cephus said:
Dictionaries are your friend.

re·al1
ˈrē(ə)l/
adjective
1.
actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.
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yes, dictionaries are my friend... smart asses, not so much.


so am i to gather that you believe nothing is "real" unless it has a distinct physical manifestation?
 
haymarket said:
Something that many right libertarians truly have never understood as the very concept is outside of their self imposed belief system.
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vacuous non-answer... your usual fare.:roll:

do you also believe nothing is "real" unless is has a distinct physical manifestation?
 
Thrilla said:
vacuous non-answer... your usual fare.:roll:

do you also believe nothing is "real" unless is has a distinct physical manifestation?
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Your post makes no sense in reply to the one from me that you repeated at the start of your post since i provided a very clear statement that was very easy to understand.

As to your what is real question - I really do not have any idea what you are talking about or what it has to do with very real rights that people can exercise.
 
haymarket said:
Your post makes no sense in reply to the one from me that you repeated at the start of your post since i provided a very clear statement that was very easy to understand.

As to your what is real question - I really do not have any idea what you are talking about or what it has to do with very real rights that people can exercise.
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you previous reply was bereft of relevancy , intelligence, and meaning.... deal with it.

of course you argue you have no idea what i'm talking about.. we're used to you feigning ignorance when a simple question is posed to you.
 
haymarket said:
Since you are NOT quoting from the Declaration - it is irrelevant and means nothing since that is what was being discussed as the clear statement of natural rights in our founding documents.
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what i post shows natural rights of life liberty and property, did not originate from the DOI.
 
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Thrilla said:
yes, dictionaries are my friend... smart asses, not so much.
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Then libertarians ought to knock it off.

so am i to gather that you believe nothing is "real" unless it has a distinct physical manifestation?
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What in the definition I provided says anything of the sort?
 
haymarket said:
Actually what it does it proves you presented a falsehood about the beliefs of Jefferson as stated in his famous statement about natural rights in the Declaration.

I will leave it to others to deduce why in the world would you do something so inherently intellectually dishonest.
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what falsehood? you pretend that he was a liar. and you failed to prove it

more egregiously, you failed to prove your leap of faith that because some of those who SIGNED the DOI didn't extend the coverage to SLAVES, therefore they didn't believe in natural rights or by extrapolation, the Bill of Rights which is one of the silliest jumps of non logic ever seen on this board
 
haymarket said:
The only thing DISINGENUOUS is your continual pretending that Jefferson did not write the words ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and that they had rights including LIBERTY. And if you want to call your attempt at tat same intellectual fraud BOGUS - that is fine with me.
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that is an apples to cinderblock comparison and silly at that. what is the end game to your constant complaints about Jefferson? that is what is really specious
 
TurtleDude said:
what falsehood? you pretend that he was a liar. and you failed to prove it
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The daily actions for years and years and years and years of Jefferson prove that his one shot statement of natural rights on one day in July of 1776 was a falsehood.

It further shows that anyone who would take that one shot statement over years and years and years of opposite real world actions is intentionally deluding themselves into a fantasy that is being perpetuated only to avoid destroying the make believe concepts that are divorced from both history and reality.
 
TurtleDude said:
that is an apples to cinderblock comparison and silly at that. what is the end game to your constant complaints about Jefferson? that is what is really specious
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No - its 100% true and accurate and very much part of the real world most people live in.
 
haymarket said:
No - its 100% true and accurate and very much part of the real world most people live in.
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rejected as contrary to reality. its a silly argument. Even if Jefferson did not believe that those rights applied to ALL MEN so what. Your silly attempt to try to undermine the scope of the BIll of Rights based on that claim is beyond bogus
 
TurtleDude said:
rejected as contrary to reality. its a silly argument. Even if Jefferson did not believe that those rights applied to ALL MEN so what. Your silly attempt to try to undermine the scope of the BIll of Rights based on that claim is beyond bogus
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Why should anyone care what Jefferson believed when we're trying to establish what actually exists in objective reality? Jefferson's opinions mean exactly what everyone else's opinions do. Jack squat.
 
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