View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #961
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    There is a joke here and I admit that I am not smart enough to get it.
    It was only the comparison you chose dogs vs land. Dogs are self active, while land just sits there. It's hard to stop the dog farting or put the land in the car and move to Oregon. But never mind. I was omonly musing.

  2. #962
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I just find it silly that he thinks that I don't really own my dogs or that I can't control them like I do a piece of land. Methinks the young master is projecting his own inability to control the property in his life. Hell, all I have to do is whistle and my dogs will run into the room. I can ship them off to any country that I want and they have no say in the matter. I can train them to do as I wish: attack, defend, be gentle etc. Hell, I can leave them to you and you can do all of that too! The same was done to human beings for 250+ years in the US and thousands of years around the world. Any notion that I don't own them is pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
    My cat comes to me when I whistle, sits on command, plays fetch and none of that means that I am in control of it. If my cat decides on it's own that it wants nothing to do with it then it will simply not pay me any mind. Just because an animal is trained and does as you desire it to do does not at all refute my argument. The same is true of people as well. Just because they listen to you and do as they are told, or just because you can move them around does not at all mean you have assumed control of them.

  3. #963
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Dogs get to own themselves when they stop ****ting in my yard.
    Well, you brought them home and told them to **** in your yard, so..

  4. #964
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Well, you brought them home and told them to **** in your yard, so..
    I don't have a dog. I'm talking about the ones the neighbors "own" but let run "free."
    Нава́льный 2018

  5. #965
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    My cat comes to me when I whistle, sits on command, plays fetch and none of that means that I am in control of it. If my cat decides on it's own that it wants nothing to do with it then it will simply not pay me any mind.
    That's nice, you still own the cat and can transfer its ownership to anyone you want. Hell, you can even end your cat's life if you so wish. That's pretty much how human beings were treated regardless of what they wished.

    Just because an animal is trained and does as you desire it to do does not at all refute my argument. The same is true of people as well. Just because they listen to you and do as they are told, or just because you can move them around does not at all mean you have assumed control of them.
    Yeah, it's obvious that you don't actually understand how chattel slavery worked. Do you know what was done to slaves who didn't listen or didn't want to listen?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #966
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is contrary to reality. I can legally transfer ownership of my dogs and there isn't much they can do about it.



    Either you don't understand how chattel slavery works or you simply ignore the fact that you don't need any of those prerequisites you're dearly holding unto for something to be property it. Which is it? The ownership of property - all property, including slaves - is transferred with money, contracts and the legal recognition of both. The ownership is maintained through force. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend?
    I simply reject the basis of your argument that all property legally recognized is legitimate. Before we consider legitimacy of claims we have to form a basis of how someone comes to own something or otherwise law has no basis to even start from. Your entire approach here seems to be either circular or backwards.

  7. #967
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    That's nice, you still own the cat and can transfer its ownership to anyone you want. Hell, you can even end your cat's life if you so wish. That's pretty much how human beings were treated regardless of what they wished.
    Yes, except that isn't the entire control picture, but merely part of it. The remainder of the control picture is simply something you don't wish to see.

    Yeah, it's obvious that you don't actually understand how chattel slavery worked. Do you know what was done to slaves who didn't listen or didn't want to listen?
    How does that refute my argument? Whipping someone when they refuse to obey would only seem to support my argument that you do not in fact control them.

  8. #968
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I simply reject the basis of your argument that all property legally recognized is legitimate.
    That wasn't my premise at all. My premise is that human beings can be property and they have been treated as property in the real world. Not Libertarian-la-la-land.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #969
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    That wasn't my premise at all. My premise is that human beings can be property and they have been treated as property in the real world. Not Libertarian-la-la-land.
    I agree people are property of themselves. How people were treated in the past by aggressors doesn't seem to challenge my argument.

  10. #970
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I agree people are property of themselves.
    And they can be forced into being someone else's property. That property is defended and upheld through contracts, law, conventions, etc. What you feel about that is irrelevant.

    How people were treated in the past by aggressors doesn't seem to challenge my argument.
    We are all well aware that the real world has never been an obstacle to your pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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