View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #951
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    Hatuey's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Again, dogs like human being own themselves and such ownership can not be transferred.
    This is contrary to reality. I can legally transfer ownership of my dogs and there isn't much they can do about it.

    The control and ownership of a piece of dirt and rocks, a car, a couch, a plane or some other inanimate object can easily be shown to be transferable. I can't control people because I can't truly assume control over them. It can never truly be a transferable object to the fullest extent of the word.

    There are things that are simply not transferable, and other things that are not able to be owned at all, like for example, an idea.
    Either you don't understand how chattel slavery works or you simply ignore the fact that you don't need any of those prerequisites you're dearly holding unto for something to be property it. Which is it? The ownership of property - all property, including slaves - is transferred with money, contracts and the legal recognition of both. The ownership is maintained through force. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  2. #952
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is contrary to reality. I can legally transfer ownership of my dogs and there isn't much they can do about it.
    But this is all wishful thinking for libertarians. They just make it up, have blind faith in it and refuse to admit that it's all a bunch of pie-in-the-sky nonsense. Going around and around and around with these people won't change that.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #953
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    Ahlevah's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    So you're saying that because there are often no right answer morality must be objective? If anything, it strengthens the suggestion that morality is subjective. A subjective morality is one that can evolve as we progress as a species, which is important as we gain more knowledge about the world around us.
    No, I'm saying sometimes you're faced with trying to determine, as Jerry stated, the "lesser of two evils." Neither choice could be considered "moral." In Truman's case, it was kill Japanese and end the war or don't kill Japanese and let the war drag on, with more dead Allies and Japanese every day until it reached its final conclusion.
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  4. #954
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    No, I'm saying sometimes you're faced with trying to determine, as Jerry stated, the "lesser of two evils." Neither choice could be considered "moral." In Truman's case, it was kill Japanese and end the war or don't kill Japanese and let the war drag on, with more dead Allies and Japanese every day until it reached its final conclusion.
    True, Truman saved lives on both sides of the conflict by using the nukes, not just A lied lives.

  5. #955
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    300 years ago, slavery was not considered morally wrong, now it is. I am assuming that in your 'objective morality' slavery is wrong. Are there things that we consider moral now that in 500 times may be considered immoral? What would objective morality say about those things? If we as a species are slowly moving towards the state of being objectively morality, have we yet reached it, can or will we ever reach it?
    Yeah, slavery is wrong, was wrong, always has been wrong, notwithstanding the Hebrew God of the Old Testament. (Lincoln argued that God is providential and "has His own purposes." He's always just, and it's not our place to question His wisdom [Abraham Lincoln: Second Inaugural Address].) During ancient times the general course of events was when one nation conquered another the losing men were slain and the women and children became slaves. Sometimes the men got "lucky" and were put to work in mines or building monuments or temples or placed in galleys. People could also be sold into slavery.

    As far as objective morality, have we reached it? No. We can't even agree on what it is, and because of human avarice and malevolence I doubt we'll ever get there completely. There will always be those who think the rules don't apply to them. But philosophers and logicians have already given those of us who wish to follow a "good" path" a pretty extensive toolkit.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But this is all wishful thinking for libertarians. They just make it up, have blind faith in it and refuse to admit that it's all a bunch of pie-in-the-sky nonsense. Going around and around and around with these people won't change that.
    sorry man.. libertarianism doesn't exist.... nor does conservatism....

    well, using your very own standards of existence anyways...

  7. #957
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Everything I said would apply to animals as well. A dog is in control over it's own body and they can not freely give it up nor can anyone take it from them.
    Dogs get to own themselves when they stop ****ting in my yard.
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  8. #958
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But this is all wishful thinking for libertarians. They just make it up, have blind faith in it and refuse to admit that it's all a bunch of pie-in-the-sky nonsense. Going around and around and around with these people won't change that.
    I just find it silly that he thinks that I don't really own my dogs or that I can't control them like I do a piece of land. Methinks the young master is projecting his own inability to control the property in his life. Hell, all I have to do is whistle and my dogs will run into the room. I can ship them off to any country that I want and they have no say in the matter. I can train them to do as I wish: attack, defend, be gentle etc. Hell, I can leave them to you and you can do all of that too! The same was done to human beings for 250+ years in the US and thousands of years around the world. Any notion that I don't own them is pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #959
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I just find it silly that he thinks that I don't really own my dogs or that I can't control them like I do a piece of land. Methinks the young master is projecting his own inability to control the property in his life. Hell, all I have to do is whistle and my dogs will run into the room. I can ship them off to any country that I want and they have no say in the matter. I can train them to do as I wish: attack, defend, be gentle etc. Hell, I can leave them to you and you can do all of that too! The same was done to human beings for 250+ years in the US and thousands of years around the world. Any notion that I don't own them is pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
    Land is different than dogs in that it doesn't wag a tail.

  10. #960
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Land is different than dogs in that it doesn't wag a tail.
    There is a joke here and I admit that I am not smart enough to get it.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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