View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #921
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You don't get to tell me my morality, what I believe is right or wrong.
    I can tell you what I think is moral and why I think it's moral. What I can't do is reconcile your professed belief that genocide is wrong against your statement that morality is whatever the majority wants. So what is your view? Genocide is wrong today but if we took a worldwide vote tomorrow and people said it was okay then it would be okay? Is that your position?
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  2. #922
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I can tell you what I think is moral and why I think it's moral. What I can't do is reconcile your professed belief that genocide is wrong against your statement that morality is whatever the majority wants. So what is your view? Genocide is wrong today but if we took a worldwide vote tomorrow and people said it was okay then it would be okay? Is that your position?
    I didn't say morality is whatever the majority wants. I have said that laws are made from the morality of the majority or those in charge. Those are not the same things. Morality is subjective. But you get laws in countries like ours based off of a consensus of the majority agreeing upon certain moral rules. In our case, the majority is limited by a supermajority in the form of the Constitution.

    To me, it would still be wrong and I would work to turn it around. If that meant killing people to defend myself or others from being killed en masse, even killing a lot of people, then so be it. Subjective morality doesn't mean you must submit to the moral code of those in charge, whether it be a person, a small group of people, or the majority of a society you live in. It just means that everyone has their own morals. My morality doesn't change with the beliefs of the majority (such morality would be shallow). It is based on my experiences and what I've learned throughout my life. My moral code/compass can change, just like other people's can.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  3. #923
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    My morality doesn't change with the beliefs of the majority (such morality would be shallow). It is based on my experiences and what I've learned throughout my life. My moral code/compass can change, just like other people's can.
    Does experience change the moral nature of a question or just the viewer's perception of it? I argue for the former. The principles behind a reasoned argument are constant, regardless of who is doing the arguing. As for mass killing, I can justify self-preservation. I can't justify killing people to satisfy a whim or megalomania.
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  4. #924
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Does experience change the moral nature of a question or just the viewer's perception of it? I argue for the former. The principles behind a reasoned argument are constant, regardless of who is doing the arguing. As for mass killing, I can justify self-preservation. I can't justify killing people to satisfy a whim or megalomania.
    You can't, others can, at least to themselves, and likely to a few others.

    What if there were people who had a disease that they were carriers for but it didn't kill them. Would you support killing them to keep them from infecting others if it had a 99% fatality rate and airborne infection? That could easily be seen as self defense, but those people didn't do anything, they are just trying to survive, have food, water, and other necessary resources.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #925
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What if there were people who had a disease that they were carriers for but it didn't kill them. Would you support killing them to keep them from infecting others if it had a 99% fatality rate and airborne infection?
    No, but they couldn't be permitted to infect the general populace. They'd have to quarantined, even if that meant indefinitely in a controlled environment.
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  6. #926
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You can't....
    What? Justify mass killing? It depends. If one country invades another and citizens of the target nation are at risk of losing their lives they have every right to defend themselves.
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  7. #927
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    It depends on how you define the question. The poll question asks the respondents whether they believe in natural rights. I responded that I did. I was then asked to provide objective proof to support my belief. I responded I had no "proof" in the sense that I've never had a right hit me in the head. On the other hand, I've seen no objective proof to disprove the theory even though some have maintained categorically that there is no objective basis for natural rights. What I have said is human intellect has given us the ability to reason, and reason tells us that a being that has the ability to reason, experience living, and feel thoughts and emotions has value beyond mere existence. I'm still waiting for the counter-argument.

    Is their moral sense different, or do they just violate what they know to be true? If someone does something for you because he wants to from his free will while another does something for you because he's forced to would it be "reasonable" to give each circumstance the same moral worth? Why would this ever be true?

    Was it? I wonder. How many Germans knew about the death camps and the scale of the Final Solution? How many of them just kept their mouths shut because if they opened them they'd end up on an eastbound train? How many of them had a sense that what they were doing was wrong but grudgingly participated? And how many of them had an absolutely amazing moral epiphany between 1940 and 1945 when national shame set it?
    There are a boatload of people who do wrong because they believe it was right. Because given their knowledge and the circumstance that is the sensible moral decision to come to. When the aztecs sacrificed children they didn't have some moral sense suggesting 'oh this is wrong we shouldn't be doing this'. They genuinely believed what they were doing was morally right.

    The exact same situation can have different moral outcomes depending on your knowledge of it. We all share the same knowledge of the genocidal events now so we can make a common judgement on the morality of it, but objectivity is an illusion.
    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK

  8. #928
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    What? Justify mass killing?
    Using nukes on Japan was the lesser evil because it stopped the conflict with far fewer casualties.

    There, mass killing justified.

  9. #929
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Using nukes on Japan was the lesser evil because it stopped the conflict with far fewer casualties.

    There, mass killing justified.
    I'm sure the Japanese viewed it (and still do now) as immoral.

    Subjective morality justified.
    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK

  10. #930
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    There are a boatload of people who do wrong because they believe it was right. Because given their knowledge and the circumstance that is the sensible moral decision to come to. When the aztecs sacrificed children they didn't have some moral sense suggesting 'oh this is wrong we shouldn't be doing this'. They genuinely believed what they were doing was morally right.

    The exact same situation can have different moral outcomes depending on your knowledge of it. We all share the same knowledge of the genocidal events now so we can make a common judgement on the morality of it, but objectivity is an illusion.
    Philosophy is not the study of what people believe to be true. It's an attempt to discern what IS true, to offer a method of determining what people should do when faced with a particular set of circumstances and fully cognizant of the facts. So from that standpoint I can excuse behavior that is conditioned or based on ignorance. For me, a big part of determining the morality of an act is the person's intent. Is it malicious? Is it compelled? Or is the behavior offered of his own free will in a benevolent way, with love and compassion?
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