View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #911
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And no, morals are subjective. Right and wrong is subjective. This is why segregation was fought so hard by so many, because they didn't see it as "wrong", despite so many of us now seeing this as wrong.
    Okay, they "didn't see it as 'wrong'" but it was wrong nonetheless, just as Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin were wrong when they snuffed out tens of millions of lives. It took the moral suasion of people like Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy and television images of blacks being beaten at places such as the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma to convince those who still needed convincing that Jim Crow was wrong. But, once again, love and reason triumphed over hate and discord.
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  2. #912
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And no, morals are subjective. Right and wrong is subjective. This is why segregation was fought so hard by so many, because they didn't see it as "wrong", despite so many of us now seeing this as wrong.
    While we're on the subject, do me a favor and give me your best moral argument in favor of the Holocaust. And I don't consider a moral argument one in which "lots of Germans thought it was right." I mean tell us why killing millions of Jews, Catholic clergymen, gypsies, homosexuals, political dissidents, etc. wasn't "wrong." If morals are truly subjective that shouldn't prove too difficult.
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  3. #913
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    You're deluding yourself if you think these are rights. The constitution of the USSR was a beautiful testament to human rights. I have a copy from the 1930s. It didn't prevent Stalin from killing 25 million people and sending millions more to forced labor camps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    True. That consent can come willingly from political indoctrination or begrudgingly through force. The Soviet Union got around the problem of dissent by utilizing a combination of both, with political education and, during several critical periods in the USSR's history, by embedding communist political commissars within the ranks of every military unit in the country. Their job was both to indoctrinate and sniff out dissent. Then there were various incarnations of the secret police (such as the NKVD). The normal resolution was to make the troublemaker disappear, either by executing him or sending him to a forced labor camp in the Gulag where he also faced a high probability of death.
    You're contrasting distribution of liberties within competing social structures. That's not an argument in defense of natural rights, that's simply a plea to emotions.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

  4. #914
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Okay, they "didn't see it as 'wrong'" but it was wrong nonetheless, just as Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin were wrong when they snuffed out tens of millions of lives. It took the moral suasion of people like Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy and television images of blacks being beaten at places such as the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma to convince those who still needed convincing that Jim Crow was wrong. But, once again, love and reason triumphed over hate and discord.
    Wrong, according to a majority. It's still a matter of consensus. You can't objectively prove something is morally wrong.
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  5. #915
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    Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    While we're on the subject, do me a favor and give me your best moral argument in favor of the Holocaust. And I don't consider a moral argument one in which "lots of Germans thought it was right." I mean tell us why killing millions of Jews, Catholic clergymen, gypsies, homosexuals, political dissidents, etc. wasn't "wrong." If morals are truly subjective that shouldn't prove too difficult.
    That's just it. Morality is all subjective so you can't give an objective argument for it either way. Give me an argument for why it is wrong that doesn't involve any emotions or beliefs or "isn't it obvious?". You can't prove subjective arguments.

    I believe it is wrong what happened along with the vast majority of those on the planet since the Holocaust. But that is still subjective.
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  6. #916
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I believe it is wrong what happened along with the vast majority of those on the planet since the Holocaust. But that is still subjective.
    No you don't. You may think you do, but if you can't properly articulate why you believe it other than Hitler lost and a majority of the planet declares it wrong then you're standing on moral quicksand. As I've already pointed out, from a logical standpoint when you say majority rules when it comes to morals you assume a normative position that says "If a majority of Germans say it's fine to kill Jews it's fine with me." Basically, anything goes as long as the majority wills it. That's just as absurd a position as the "might makes right" argument.

    The reason people find genocide immoral and why there are international conventions against it is because it violates what Francis Hutcheson called our moral sense:

    Suppose we get the same advantage from two men, one of whom does things for us because he loves us and delights in our happiness, while the other acts out of self-interest or under constraint. The two are equally beneficial or advantageous to us, and yet we’ll have quite different sentiments regarding them. So it’s certain that we have perceptions of moral actions other than those of advantage; and this power of receiving these perceptions can be called a moral ‘sense’, since it fits the definition of that word, namely ‘a determination of the mind to receive an idea from the presence of an object that we are presented with independently of our will’.

    The Origin of Our Ideas of Virtue or Moral Good--Francis Hutcheson
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  7. #917
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    No you don't. You may think you do, but if you can't properly articulate why you believe it other than Hitler lost and a majority of the planet declares it wrong then you're standing on moral quicksand. As I've already pointed out, from a logical standpoint when you say majority rules when it comes to morals you assume a normative position that says "If a majority of Germans say it's fine to kill Jews it's fine with me." Basically, anything goes as long as the majority wills it. That's just as absurd a position as the "might makes right" argument.

    The reason people find genocide immoral and why there are international conventions against it is because it violates what Francis Hutcheson called our moral sense:
    You are just begging the question now thouh. You can call it 'moral sense' if you want, but now the argument is just that 'moral sense' is subjective, not objective. Otherwise why are peoples moral senses different? What you and I may find immoral is different. What german citizens in in 1940 found immoral was different. Morality is linked to knowledge, and people with differing knowledge of differing situations can come to different conclusions as to the morality of it.
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  8. #918
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    No you don't. You may think you do, but if you can't properly articulate why you believe it other than Hitler lost and a majority of the planet declares it wrong then you're standing on moral quicksand. As I've already pointed out, from a logical standpoint when you say majority rules when it comes to morals you assume a normative position that says "If a majority of Germans say it's fine to kill Jews it's fine with me." Basically, anything goes as long as the majority wills it. That's just as absurd a position as the "might makes right" argument.

    The reason people find genocide immoral and why there are international conventions against it is because it violates what Francis Hutcheson called our moral sense:
    You don't get to tell me my morality, what I believe is right or wrong. But by you stating that I don't believe it is wrong, you did prove my point. If I don't believe that genocide is wrong, then I do not share your moral sense, so therefore, different people have different senses of morality.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #919
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You don't get to tell me my morality, what I believe is right or wrong. But by you stating that I don't believe it is wrong, you did prove my point. If I don't believe that genocide is wrong, then I do not share your moral sense, so therefore, different people have different senses of morality.
    The religious think their morality is the only morality and anyone who doesn't practice their morality is wrong. That's why this is a total waste of time.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #920
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    You are just begging the question now thouh. You can call it 'moral sense' if you want, but now the argument is just that 'moral sense' is subjective, not objective.
    It depends on how you define the question. The poll question asks the respondents whether they believe in natural rights. I responded that I did. I was then asked to provide objective proof to support my belief. I responded I had no "proof" in the sense that I've never had a right hit me in the head. On the other hand, I've seen no objective proof to disprove the theory even though some have maintained categorically that there is no objective basis for natural rights. What I have said is human intellect has given us the ability to reason, and reason tells us that a being that has the ability to reason, experience living, and feel thoughts and emotions has value beyond mere existence. I'm still waiting for the counter-argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Otherwise why are peoples moral senses different?
    Is their moral sense different, or do they just violate what they know to be true? If someone does something for you because he wants to from his free will while another does something for you because he's forced to would it be "reasonable" to give each circumstance the same moral worth? Why would this ever be true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    What german citizens in in 1940 found immoral was different.
    Was it? I wonder. How many Germans knew about the death camps and the scale of the Final Solution? How many of them just kept their mouths shut because if they opened them they'd end up on an eastbound train? How many of them had a sense that what they were doing was wrong but grudgingly participated? And how many of them had an absolutely amazing moral epiphany between 1940 and 1945 when national shame set it?
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