View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #861
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because the only evidence I need is the Constitution itself. That is our highest governing document. Nothing supersedes that law in the US, including how any of the framers might have believed something should remain.

    And you cannot prove natural rights exist by using any laws because those are made by people and all are subject to change.
    oh! i cant

    america before the DOI was created, americans had natural rights.

    The Rights of the Colonists: Samuel Adams, 1772

    the declaration of independence which is part of u.s. code, made that way in 1878, by congress, and the founding principles of said declaration of independence recognized by u.s.federal law.

    State History Enabling Act

    the u.s. constitution embodies the very principles of the declaration of independence, equality under law, limited government , natural rights endowed.

    equality..... article 4 section 2 of the constitution

    limited government...delegated powers article 1 section 8

    natural rights......no rights granted by the constitution.

    you have nothing to show anything of america or american law, to prove your concepts..nothing.
    Last edited by Master PO; 05-25-15 at 05:00 PM.

  2. #862
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    History is littered with examples of court's doing just that. Courts will say oh yes you have rights...but we're going to look the other way from this bill which gives the President certain powers and let him lock up Japanese citizens.

    when government no longer fulfills it role of why it was created, then it is time to end government and start anew


    Spare me your bible quotes anything can be changed or "reinterpreted".
    that has nothing to do with the bible jerry...why are you going in that direction?

  3. #863
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Collective force is still force. Redistribution of rights still is determined by force. All those "Rights" written down on handsomely signed papers only exist because there is a collective force strong enough to declare them, distribute them, and enforce them.
    You're deluding yourself if you think these are rights. The constitution of the USSR was a beautiful testament to human rights. I have a copy from the 1930s. It didn't prevent Stalin from killing 25 million people and sending millions more to forced labor camps.
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  4. #864
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    A general is still a single human being. The general will need consent of his troops.
    True. That consent can come willingly from political indoctrination or begrudgingly through force. The Soviet Union got around the problem of dissent by utilizing a combination of both, with political education and, during several critical periods in the USSR's history, by embedding communist political commissars within the ranks of every military unit in the country. Their job was both to indoctrinate and sniff out dissent. Then there were various incarnations of the secret police (such as the NKVD). The normal resolution was to make the troublemaker disappear, either by executing him or sending him to a forced labor camp in the Gulag where he also faced a high probability of death.
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  5. #865
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Already linked and quoted.

    A natural right is inalienable, inalienable means it can't be taken away or given up, QED any right that can be taken away or given up is not a natural right.

    We can down a list of rights and test them. Your right to life can be taken away through murder, homicide, suicide, injury or illness, therefore Life is not a natural right. Your right to free speech, peaceably assemble, freedom of the press and redress grievences can be taken away with martial law, so those aren't natural rights. You're right to 'bodily sovereignty' can be taken away through simple assult, rape, incarceration, prohibition of a medical procedure, slavery, etc, so you have no natural right to bodily sovereignty, either.

    You don't even have inalienable rights in a strictly legal context since Due Process can strip you of everything. If you actually had an inalienable right to, say, liberty, then you could walk right out of prison at-will exactly like Hancock, ripping doors asside, jumping over fences, bullets bouncing off your magical 'right to liberty' forcfield.
    In what post number did you provide a link to a dictionary definition of natural rights that states "A Natural Right is any Human Right which cannot be forcibly denied by any means whatsoever"?

    Natural rights exist whether or not they are respected by individuals and society. All human beings have a natural right to life. A murder is a violator of that natural right. You are failing to grasp the concept of natural rights entirely.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    that has nothing to do with the bible jerry...why are you going in that direction?
    That's how you're acting.

    Nothing the DOI or Constitution says is relevant since they can't impact natural rights in any way.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Natural rights exist whether or not they are respected by individuals and society. All human beings have a natural right to life. A murder is a violator of that natural right. You are failing to grasp the concept of natural rights entirely.
    If there were a natural right to life then no one could ever be murdered.

    In fact there wouldn't even be war since no one on either side could ever die.

  8. #868
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    People tend to be reasonable some of the time.
    Actually, people tend to be reasonable most of the time. Even a "reasonable" criminal takes measures to avoid capture. If he doesn't, he knows he's going to be surrendering his freedom. And even when people are unreasonable the tendency to revert to the (reasonable) norm is present. For example, people who engage in fights or arguments with people they love or care for never find them pleasurable, assuming they're reasonable people.
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  9. #869
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Actually, people tend to be reasonable most of the time. Even a "reasonable" criminal takes measures to avoid capture. If he doesn't, he knows he's going to be surrendering his freedom. And even when people are unreasonable the tendency to revert to the (reasonable) norm is present. For example, people who engage in fights or arguments with people they love or care for never find them pleasurable, assuming they're reasonable people.
    What is "reasonable" can be subjective. I might say it is reasonable to expect someone to pay their taxes, while others might say it is unreasonable to pay taxes.

    Actually, you should not use the word "never". There are people who find arguments or fights pleasurable while still being reasonable people.

    None of this in any way supports the contention though that we have natural rights because we are somehow more reasonable than animals, as far as we know.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What is "reasonable" can be subjective.
    True, but then how many people do you see volunteering to go to prison? People have a natural tendency to desire their freedom.
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