View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #851
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    They also think if a woman kills them they won't make it to heaven where 72 virgins are waiting for them. It doesn't mean they're right. Really, they just haven't thought things through very carefully. It's possible that if people start chucking them of off buildings for being brutish douchebags they'll have a change of heart.
    When it comes to what might happen to us when we die, none of us know if we are correct. But that has nothing to do really with "right and wrong". Right or wrong, morality, is about how we each view whether something is right or wrong. Even if God exists, a higher power in general exist, it doesn't mean that they can dictate what we believe is right or wrong.

    I can't help but think of that episode of Star Trek: TNG where the woman comes to the planet claiming to be the "God" they all believed in. Why must a God be "good" and fair and just? Why should we have to obey the God just because they made us or have some power to decide where we go after we die, where our soul goes? That is morality based on fear, believing that you should do the right thing to ensure that you get in this higher power's favor to avoid the negative afterlife.

    You are proving the point actually by talking about someone using force against someone else to try to get them to see their way. That is force trying to change another person's "beliefs" (which likely wouldn't work, after all, do you think you would change your mind about their beliefs if they started throwing those who believed like you off buildings?).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #852
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    People tend to be reasonable. That's why you can find a version of the Golden Rule on every corner of the planet going back to the ancients.

    Versions of the Golden Rule

    Throwing people off of buildings because they're gay doesn't uphold that rule.
    People tend to be reasonable some of the time. Other animals have reasoning abilities as well though. Most primates in fact, as well as some other animals.

    No, it doesn't. But that is the rule that we live by because we think it is right. We punish people for throwing anyone off a building for reasons such as being gay because society has agreed that this is wrong. But that has to do with power too. We have the power to punish people for doing those things. Is it upholding the rule to kill people for trying to steal your property? There are plenty of things we allow people to do here in the US that does not absolutely uphold that rule.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #853
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    well if the amendment were repealed yes you could make a law, which restricted speech, however it would go before the court and the court has already recognized free speech as well as many other rights, is the USSC going to reverse themselves and say free speech now does not exist.

    right to privacy is not an enumerated right per the constitution ..... how is it secured?....its recognized by law.
    The court can always change it's mind.

    Just because a court has said something doesn't mean that's how it'll stay; especially with instruments like the Patriot Act around.

  4. #854
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    People tend to be reasonable some of the time. Other animals have reasoning abilities as well though. Most primates in fact, as well as some other animals.

    No, it doesn't. But that is the rule that we live by because we think it is right. We punish people for throwing anyone off a building for reasons such as being gay because society has agreed that this is wrong. But that has to do with power too. We have the power to punish people for doing those things. Is it upholding the rule to kill people for trying to steal your property? There are plenty of things we allow people to do here in the US that does not absolutely uphold that rule.
    your concepts, are not improbable.......in other parts of the world.

    however in america and american law they do not exist, america is about natural law, and has been.

    so you are trying to apply something to america...which while can exist...does not exist for us ..here.
    Anti-Democracy advocate, Mixed government is the only good government

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    second point to be examined is, whether the [constitutional ]convention were authorized to frame and propose this mixed Constitution.


  5. #855
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    ..so what your telling me is,you cannot rebut this so you cast it aside and ignore it.

    as i stated to you before you have nothing, IN AMERICA OR AMERICAN LAW WHICH PROVES YOUR POINT.

    because your concepts defy the founding principles of the united states of america.

    rights cannot be repealed, because they are not granted by the constitution.

    question.....how can you repeal the "right to privacy" since it is not enumerated at all.

    rights are recognized by u.s. law, and the congress has never created a right.

    rights are unwritten law , like the right to privacy


    Unwritten Law
    Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.

    Most laws in America are written. The U.S. Code, the Code of Federal Regulations, and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are three examples of written laws that are frequently cited in federal court. Each state has a similar body of written laws. By contrast, unwritten law consists of those customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

    Unwritten law is most commonly found in primitive societies where illiteracy is prevalent. Because many residents in such societies cannot read or write, there is little point in publishing written laws to govern their conduct. Instead, societal disputes in primitive societies are resolved informally, through appeal to unwritten maxims of fairness or popularly accepted modes of behavior. Litigants present their claims orally in most primitive societies, and judges announce their decisions in the same fashion. The governing body in primitive societies typically enforces the useful traditions that are widely practiced in the community, while those practices that are novel or harmful fall into disuse or are discouraged.

    Much of International Law is a form of primitive unwritten law. For centuries the Rules of War governing hostilities between belligerents consisted of a body of unwritten law. While some of these rules have been codified by international bodies such as the United Nations, many have not. For example, retaliatory reprisals against acts of Terrorism by a foreign government are still governed by unwritten customs in the international community. Each nation also retains discretion in formulating a response to the aggressive acts of a neighboring state.


    In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In Constitutional Law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution. In Commercial Law the Uniform Commercial Code permits merchants to resolve legal disputes by introducing evidence of unwritten customs, practices, and usages that others in the same trade generally follow. The entire body of Common Law, comprising cases decided by judges on matters relating to torts and contracts, among other things, is said to reflect unwritten standards that have evolved over time. In each case, however, once a court, legislature, or other government body formally adopts a standard, principle, or Maxim in writing, it ceases to be an unwritten law.

    unwritten law legal definition of unwritten law


    for those who say unwritten law does not exist

    USlegal.com

    Unwritten Law Law & Legal Definition

    Unwritten law refers to the law based upon custom, usage, and judicial decisions. It is distinguished from the enactments of a legislature, orders or decrees in writing. Although an unwritten law is not enacted in the form of statute or ordinance, it has got legal sanction. An unwritten law need not be expressly evidenced in court decisions, but may be collected, gathered or implied there from under statute.
    You obviously have no clue how our Constitution works. If we wanted to, if there was enough support, we could change any part of the Constitution and refuse to recognize any rights currently listed there. We could also throw out the US Constitution. A more powerful force could come along and make the Constitution completely useless.

    The Constitution and Bill of Rights means something to us because we agree, as a collective, that this is what is best. We, as a society, agree that we will uphold these ideals because we, as a group, believe in them. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone does, only that enough do to hold enough power over those that don't.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #856
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The court can always change it's mind.

    Just because a court has said something doesn't mean that's how it'll stay; especially with instruments like the Patriot Act around.
    the day the courts says rights do not exist for the people, then this comes into play

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    because government is then not doing what it was created for, and since it is no longer fulfilling it rolled for that creation, .....IT is no longer needed.
    Anti-Democracy advocate, Mixed government is the only good government

    THE
    second point to be examined is, whether the [constitutional ]convention were authorized to frame and propose this mixed Constitution.


  7. #857
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    That we are rational animals is not a debatable point. It is a fact. Humans possess the faculty of rational thought. That does not, however, mean that we will always act rationally. As humans, we have a will of our own. We can decide to follow reason or not, but we cannot avoid the consequences of that decision. ??? That's a silly analogy. Animals act on instinct, not rational thought. There is no right or wrong action for a bear. There is, however, a right and wrong action for a human because we posses the ability to reason. Since we are born with reason, depend upon it for our survival and are born with a will of our own, it is right for man to use that reason and to follow that will. That is what is meant by natural rights.

    What you are describing is not rights but how one goes about violating the rights of others.

    If you understand that everyone possesses the same rights, and understand that children lack the mental abilities to make rational choices--which is why they have parents or guardians of those rights--you will get why mating with a child would almost certrainly be a violation of that childs rights.
    We are animals. There is no evidence of some other force that makes us more constrained than other animals in what we choose to do. The reason we have "morals" is because we are able to rationalize that just because we can do something, doesn't mean it doesn't come with negative consequences. And sometimes those negative consequences are not on us but on society.

    Children can make rational choices though. They may not always be the same rational choices as an adult, but they can make rational choices, at fairly early ages. And again, where does one start and the other actually begin? What exact age? How do you know? And if the rights are "natural" then they can't be taken away so they don't need a guardian for them.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #858
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You obviously have no clue how our Constitution works. If we wanted to, if there was enough support, we could change any part of the Constitution and refuse to recognize any rights currently listed there. We could also throw out the US Constitution. A more powerful force could come along and make the Constitution completely useless.

    The Constitution and Bill of Rights means something to us because we agree, as a collective, that this is what is best. We, as a society, agree that we will uphold these ideals because we, as a group, believe in them. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone does, only that enough do to hold enough power over those that don't.
    it is you who has no clue....you have been shown legal evidence.....and you cast it aside as if it does not exist.

    who is it who does not have a clue....the one who rejects the law.......you!
    Anti-Democracy advocate, Mixed government is the only good government

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    second point to be examined is, whether the [constitutional ]convention were authorized to frame and propose this mixed Constitution.


  9. #859
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    it is you who has no clue....you have been shown legal evidence.....and you cast it aside as if it does not exist.

    who is it who does not have a clue....the one who rejects the law.......you!
    Because the only evidence I need is the Constitution itself. That is our highest governing document. Nothing supersedes that law in the US, including how any of the framers might have believed something should remain.

    And you cannot prove natural rights exist by using any laws because those are made by people and all are subject to change.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #860
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the day the courts says rights do not exist for the people, then this comes into play
    History is littered with examples of court's doing just that. Courts will say oh yes you have rights...but we're going to look the other way from this bill which gives the President certain powers and let him lock up Japanese citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    because government is then not doing what it was created for, and since it is no longer fulfilling it rolled for that creation, .....IT is no longer needed.
    Spare me your bible quotes anything can be changed or "reinterpreted".

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