View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #821
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Organization is more efficient than disorganization. General mayhem is disorganization.
    That's great, but you still didn't answer the question.
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  2. #822
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    You are confusing innate rights with what we refer to as civil rights. Marriage is not an innate right. It is civil contract. The innate right you have in this regard is the right to associate with whomever you choose. Two men have the innate right to engage in whatever consensual conduct they wish. There is no innate right to have that association labeled anything at all by your fellow man.

    The innate rights you have, you have by virtue of you being a rational animal. Which is why irrational animals cannot be said to possess right of any kind.
    People are not rational just because we are people. There are plenty of irrational people out there. So this whole "by virtue of being a rational animal" thing is an excuse. It is you trying to justify why you believe we have "natural" rights, but animals don't. Animals have more "natural" rights to associate with whichever animals of either sex they wish than we do because other animals are not likely to purposely "punish" them for developing an intimate relationship with another animal of the same sex.

    And that is what rights ultimately come down to. Punishment. Can someone or something prevent you from doing something through force or punishment? If so, then that is what we are talking about with "rights". Even thinking and emotions of another person can be controlled, at least to a degree, with enough knowledge about psychology and the ability to manipulate the person.

    And there are plenty of people who will tell you that people do not in fact have a "right" to mate with whomever they wish. Do people have a natural "right" to mate with a child? Why or why not? What exactly constitutes a child and does the age of the person trying to mate with the "child" make a difference to whether the right exists (what about another child?)?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #823
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But that's the point. Once you accept that fact that rights are an objective aspect of human nature, there is no confusion as to who is right and who is wrong on the issue.
    Rights are relative to many different things and only objective in what they have been declared by a group to be.

    There is plenty of question as to who is right or wrong about this, proving that rights are in fact subjective in how we are discussing them.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #824
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    I know why its immoral. I suspect you know why its immoral. The reason is we both believe that humans have innate rights no matter where they live. Those who deny the existence of such rights have no ability to make a moral case against such evil.
    Then why does ISIS not see it as immoral do you think? I guarantee that in their eyes, they are not doing something immoral, wrong. Just as those who sought to kill witches hundreds of years ago did not likely view their actions as wrong, immoral. Is abortion immoral, wrong? Do you think the girl having the abortion thinks so or the doctor providing the abortion? What about prolife people? Is the death penalty immoral, wrong? Do you think that those who support the death penalty think it is wrong, immoral? What about those who are facing it or their families? What about those who prominently oppose the death penalty?

    You have your beliefs about why things are immoral, wrong, or "evil", but that doesn't make them objective, even if the vast majority of people share those beliefs. It simply makes it a consensus of subjective beliefs about the immorality of something. That doesn't mean that people cannot use that consensus or some other power in fact to force their morality on others. Personally I hope that this is fair and just for as many as possible (almost impossible for any set of laws to be viewed as "fair" or "just" by everyone), but that still doesn't make it objective. The only part that would be objective is saying that something is the law, is or is not against the law to do, or in the case of rights, that something violates a person's rights, rights that are recognized by the collective.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #825
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Rights are relative to many different things and only objective in what they have been declared by a group to be.

    There is plenty of question as to who is right or wrong about this, proving that rights are in fact subjective in how we are discussing them.
    In fact, all of this is just a desire by some people to avoid having to actually intellectually discuss the issue. They declare these rights to exist without having shown they exist so they can then proclaim victory without having to do the actual legwork. The same thing happens with religion. It's not impressive in either case.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #826
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    I get that we don't do that sort of thing here, but that is because we have laws based upon the concept of innate, individual rights. The problem is, the governing authority in Mosul Iraq has declared that throwing gays from tall buildings is a just and proper act. Why are they wrong? Or aren't they?
    The concept you are failing to understand here is that we see it as wrong, the vast majority of the people here in the western world because that is what we are raised to believe, what we have developed a conscious to believe.

    Do you think WBC views such things as "wrong", as immoral? I doubt it. They probably view Muslims throwing gays off buildings as God's retribution. They have different morals than I do, and likely than you do and many others on this board do. Everyone on Earth has different moral beliefs than every single other person in some way or another. They may have many things that their morals are the same about, but then can find that one thing that they disagree on whether it is wrong or right to do.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #827
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    There are many English dictionaries. I checked Merriam-Webster, and you definition is not listed under "natural right." Which are you reading that states "A Natural Right is any Human Right which cannot be forcibly denied by any means whatsoever"? Please provide a quote.

    Again, your distinction is one you have created yourself. You made up a definition of natural rights, rendering your argument semantic nonsense with no basis in how the term has been or is used and understood.
    Already linked and quoted.

    A natural right is inalienable, inalienable means it can't be taken away or given up, QED any right that can be taken away or given up is not a natural right.

    We can down a list of rights and test them. Your right to life can be taken away through murder, homicide, suicide, injury or illness, therefore Life is not a natural right. Your right to free speech, peaceably assemble, freedom of the press and redress grievences can be taken away with martial law, so those aren't natural rights. You're right to 'bodily sovereignty' can be taken away through simple assult, rape, incarceration, prohibition of a medical procedure, slavery, etc, so you have no natural right to bodily sovereignty, either.

    You don't even have inalienable rights in a strictly legal context since Due Process can strip you of everything. If you actually had an inalienable right to, say, liberty, then you could walk right out of prison at-will exactly like Hancock, ripping doors asside, jumping over fences, bullets bouncing off your magical 'right to liberty' forcfield.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-25-15 at 12:06 AM.

  8. #828
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The concept you are failing to understand here is that we see it as wrong, the vast majority of the people here in the western world because that is what we are raised to believe, what we have developed a conscious to believe.
    People tend to be reasonable. That's why you can find a version of the Golden Rule on every corner of the planet going back to the ancients.

    Versions of the Golden Rule

    Throwing people off of buildings because they're gay doesn't uphold that rule.
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  9. #829
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Then why does ISIS not see it as immoral do you think? I guarantee that in their eyes, they are not doing something immoral, wrong.
    They also think if a woman kills them they won't make it to heaven where 72 virgins are waiting for them. It doesn't mean they're right. Really, they just haven't thought things through very carefully. It's possible that if people start chucking them of off buildings for being brutish douchebags they'll have a change of heart.
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  10. #830
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    That doesn't make any sense. Dictators rule without the consent of the governed. Thats what makes them dictators. They come to power by force and remain in power by force. Not consent.
    One person cannot dictate millions of people singlehandedly, no matter how dictatorial they may be. It takes many consenting people to enforce the wishes of one person. The president of the United States has no more power than any other person on earth if the population ignores their claim to power.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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