View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #811
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Sure we have laws based on rights. Where would you get the impression we do not?

    And laws range from nation to nation and culture to culture.

    I would NOT support a government which allows what you describe? Is that "wrong"? I guess that would depend on whose definition you are using - ours or the nation you described.
    But that's the point. Once you accept that fact that rights are an objective aspect of human nature, there is no confusion as to who is right and who is wrong on the issue.

  2. #812
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The reality I live in is objective. And I have no difficulty of declaring that what they are doing is not only wrong, but objectively so. That you struggle with it is really your problem, not mine.
    Then you ought to be able to objectively produce evidence that your argument is so. Go ahead.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i already know my own words,


    you can repeal the restrictions which are placed on the federal government by the bill of rights, but you cannot repeal rights, since the bill of rights is not granting any at all.
    Go back and read your post and your own glaring error should scream out at you like 50,000 fans cheering on their teams grand slam home run in the bottom of the ninth.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But that's the point. Once you accept that fact that rights are an objective aspect of human nature, there is no confusion as to who is right and who is wrong on the issue.
    I am sorry but I have no idea what that means.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #815
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Of course not. Nobody actually does, either.

  6. #816
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Rights are a moral concept though. In fact, it is in the very name: rights, as in right and wrong. Specific rights such as life and liberty are answers to the question 'what is right for man to live as man?'
    Nope. Those don't mean the same thing. One is a noun the other isn't. You can have a right to do something and it still be viewed as morally wrong to do it.

    Take same sex marriage. It could easily be declared people have a right to same sex marriage. And do people not have a right to mate with who they want? Do they have a right to be in an intimate relationship with the person/adult of their choice? Even if they, like everyone else, have a right to form those relationships (regardless of whether there is a right for them to be treated under the law as the exact same as opposite sex relationships), whether such relationships are right or wrong is a separate issue and subjective.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #817
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    WRONG!

    the bill of rights do not grants any right at all...and since no rights are granted by the bill of rights, you cannot repeal such.

    the bill of rights are ONLY declaratory and restrictive clauses placed on the federal government.

    james Madison is the author of the bill of rights.

    HERE is the preamble to the bill of rights.

    The U.S. Bill of Rights

    The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

    Congress of the United States
    begun and held at the City of New-York, on
    Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

    THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its [FEDERAL] powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.



    the father of the constitution and author of the bill of rights.....speaking about the bill of rights, stating they are declaratory and restrictive clauses ONLY!

    James Madison, Report on the Virginia Resolutions

    Jan. 1800Writings 6:385--401

    but the evidence is still stronger. The proposition of amendments made by Congress is introduced in the following terms:

    "The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstructions or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added; and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institutions."

    Here is the most satisfactory and authentic proof that the several amendments proposed were to be considered as either declaratory or restrictive, and, whether the one or the other as corresponding with the desire expressed by a number of the States, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government.



    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...speechs24.html

    rights which are not granted by law, cannot be taken away by law, and the bill of rights grants no rights at all!

    "[You have Rights] antecedent to all earthly governments:
    Rights, that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws;
    Rights, derived from the Great Legislator of the universe."---John Adams
    None of this matters a single iota because our Constitution does not prevent in any way any part, including the Bill of Rights, from being repealed. But more than that, the Constitution itself could simply be completely thrown out the window in the future for a number of different reasons.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #818
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Nope. Those don't mean the same thing. One is a noun the other isn't. You can have a right to do something and it still be viewed as morally wrong to do it.

    Take same sex marriage. It could easily be declared people have a right to same sex marriage. And do people not have a right to mate with who they want? Do they have a right to be in an intimate relationship with the person/adult of their choice? Even if they, like everyone else, have a right to form those relationships (regardless of whether there is a right for them to be treated under the law as the exact same as opposite sex relationships), whether such relationships are right or wrong is a separate issue and subjective.
    You are confusing innate rights with what we refer to as civil rights. Marriage is not an innate right. It is civil contract. The innate right you have in this regard is the right to associate with whomever you choose. Two men have the innate right to engage in whatever consensual conduct they wish. There is no innate right to have that association labeled anything at all by your fellow man.

    The innate rights you have, you have by virtue of you being a rational animal. Which is why irrational animals cannot be said to possess right of any kind.

  9. #819
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    It doesn't answer the question at all. Here it is again: explain to me why it is immoral for ISIS to toss gays to their deaths from tall buildings?
    I was going to make the same comment until I read your reply. I mean, it's nice that we can have written laws without natural rights, but then if you're gay, your written law is the Holy Quran, and your government is ISIS, you're pretty much ****ed unless you learn how to fly before you hit the ground.
    Нава́льный 2018

  10. #820
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I was going to make the same comment until I read your reply. I mean, it's nice that we can have written laws without natural rights, but then if you're gay, your written law is the Holy Quran, and your government is ISIS, you're pretty much ****ed unless you learn how to fly before you hit the ground.
    I know why its immoral. I suspect you know why its immoral. The reason is we both believe that humans have innate rights no matter where they live. Those who deny the existence of such rights have no ability to make a moral case against such evil.

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