View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #791
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    see my post 787 where it covers your question about throwing gays off buildings.
    It doesn't answer the question at all. Here it is again: explain to me why it is immoral for ISIS to toss gays to their deaths from tall buildings?

  2. #792
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    It doesn't answer the question at all. Here it is again: explain to me why it is immoral for ISIS to toss gays to their deaths from tall buildings?
    In a society of people we do not want other people thrown off of buildings because it might hurt them and others. In and of itself - that is enough.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    So if any action you can perform is a right then is it a natural right to operate a car?

    Why are some natural rights codified but others not?
    I never said any action you can perform is a right. The government claims to property are suspect because they acquired the property through conquest which involves theft, mass murder and enslavement. The only two justified ways to acquire property are either through homesteading or through trade, and so, the governments actions were by all accounts of no justifiable merit.

    Anyway, you have the right to use your property and since a car is property you have the right to then use it. The question is only where can use it without the permission of someone else.

  4. #794
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    In a society of people we do not want other people thrown off of buildings because it might hurt them and others. In and of itself - that is enough.
    I get that we don't do that sort of thing here, but that is because we have laws based upon the concept of innate, individual rights. The problem is, the governing authority in Mosul Iraq has declared that throwing gays from tall buildings is a just and proper act. Why are they wrong? Or aren't they?

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    A dictator only has the rights of those who support him, either directly or tacitly. One man cannot rule millions without their consent.
    Of course he can. All he has to do is make it seem like no one stands a chance against him.

  6. #796
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Exactly. If rights are a product of the state, then rights cease to be a moral concept; they are simply the product of power and force. Might does not make right. What people who mock the concept of innate rights are actually doing is making the argument that what people like ISIS do, or the Taliban does is not immoral. Throwing a gay man from a tall building is not a rights violation, its just something we don't like. Its not a moral crime since the gay man possessed no more rights than a mosquito. In some societies, women are forbidden to be educated, drive a car, vote or show their faces in public. If they have no innate rights, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with this sort of thing. The people rotting in North Korean prisons have no innate right to liberty so their enslavement and captivity is no moral crime at all. THAT is the dilemma that rights deniers wont confront.
    That's exactly right. Rights are subjective or relative, but not in themselves a moral concept. They are a societal concept, things people can do without either facing government action that violates those rights or at least being able to have justice sought for you or by you for a violation of those rights. And this all relies on power and a societal agreement to these things.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  7. #797
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    no you didnt, you do not address the idea of you concpet in american laws,

    your concept defies all american laws, organic, constitutional, federal.

    now.....show me where in the laws of america where your concepts are, because you just saying it does not make it fact.
    We can amend the Constitution to completely remove any and all rights that are guaranteed within it. There is nothing preventing that except for the power of the people who would defy such an action (because at least in the foreseeable future those concepts of rights are pretty strongly held by most Americans).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #798
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    That's exactly right. Rights are subjective or relative, but not in themselves a moral concept. They are a societal concept, things people can do without either facing government action that violates those rights or at least being able to have justice sought for you or by you for a violation of those rights. And this all relies on power and a societal agreement to these things.
    Rights are a moral concept though. In fact, it is in the very name: rights, as in right and wrong. Specific rights such as life and liberty are answers to the question 'what is right for man to live as man?'

  9. #799
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    You missed my point entirely didn't you. Lets try it this way: explain to me why it is immoral for ISIS to toss gays to their deaths from tall buildings.
    Morality is subjective. It is immoral in my eyes and many others because that is how most of us view it. To them, their actions are probably not immoral. Just like some may see it as immoral to kill someone for any reason, including self defense while others view it as morally ok to kill someone for trying to steal their property (no matter the circumstances) or taking their daughter's virginity, even if the act is two consenting adults, without the fathers permission.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #800
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    We can amend the Constitution to completely remove any and all rights that are guaranteed within it. There is nothing preventing that except for the power of the people who would defy such an action (because at least in the foreseeable future those concepts of rights are pretty strongly held by most Americans).
    WRONG!

    the bill of rights do not grants any right at all...and since no rights are granted by the bill of rights, you cannot repeal such.

    the bill of rights are ONLY declaratory and restrictive clauses placed on the federal government.

    james Madison is the author of the bill of rights.

    HERE is the preamble to the bill of rights.

    The U.S. Bill of Rights

    The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

    Congress of the United States
    begun and held at the City of New-York, on
    Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

    THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its [FEDERAL] powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.



    the father of the constitution and author of the bill of rights.....speaking about the bill of rights, stating they are declaratory and restrictive clauses ONLY!

    James Madison, Report on the Virginia Resolutions

    Jan. 1800Writings 6:385--401

    but the evidence is still stronger. The proposition of amendments made by Congress is introduced in the following terms:

    "The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstructions or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added; and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institutions."

    Here is the most satisfactory and authentic proof that the several amendments proposed were to be considered as either declaratory or restrictive, and, whether the one or the other as corresponding with the desire expressed by a number of the States, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government.



    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...speechs24.html

    rights which are not granted by law, cannot be taken away by law, and the bill of rights grants no rights at all!

    "[You have Rights] antecedent to all earthly governments:
    Rights, that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws;
    Rights, derived from the Great Legislator of the universe."---John Adams
    Last edited by Master PO; 05-24-15 at 12:46 PM.
    Anti-Democracy advocate, Mixed government is the only good government

    THE
    second point to be examined is, whether the [constitutional ]convention were authorized to frame and propose this mixed Constitution.


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