View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #771
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I have no idea - nor does it matter. People get so called inspiration from many different things - some of them very different from one another and even contradictory. So it really does not matter.
    It does matter, unless you think reason doesn't matter, that human life doesn't matter--that nothing matters.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Which "God", and what proof do you have that rights came from that God?

    In reality, you can't prove a God exists, let alone that he/she/it gave us "natural rights". Plus, why would this higher power give us "natural" rights, but not other animals?
    Which is why everybody who understands the concept of 'natural rights' do not need God in the equation in order to understand them. Many people of faith do believe that God created humankind and the natural laws that allow humankind to be the best that it can be. But others who do not believe in God came to the same conclusion of the concept but called it 'natural rights' instead of 'God given rights' or 'rights endowed by their Creator.'

    "Natural rights" are not the same thing as civil rights or Constitutional rights or legal rights just as 'social contract' is not the same thing is a legal or informal contract or 'financial institution' means something specific and different from other kinds of institutions. Those who get caught up in the word used instead of the concept demonstrate a lack of understanding and get it wrong.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #773
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    General mayhem doesn't increase productivity of desirable resources.
    Is that a universal or conditional statement? If it's conditional, under that conditions, do you think, would general mayhem increase productivity and desirable resources?
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  4. #774
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Which is why everybody who understands the concept of 'natural rights' do not need God in the equation in order to understand them. Many people of faith do believe that God created humankind and the natural laws that allow humankind to be the best that it can be. But others who do not believe in God came to the same conclusion of the concept but called it 'natural rights' instead of 'God given rights' or 'rights endowed by their Creator.'

    "Natural rights" are not the same thing as civil rights or Constitutional rights or legal rights just as 'social contract' is not the same thing is a legal or informal contract or 'financial institution' means something specific and different from other kinds of institutions. Those who get caught up in the word used instead of the concept demonstrate a lack of understanding and get it wrong.
    If humans had a natural right to life, then God could never have killed anyone since natural rights cannot be alienated.

    Are you saying natural rights don't exist, or that God doesn't exist?

  5. #775
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If humans had a natural right to life, then God could never have killed anyone since natural rights cannot be alienated.

    Are you saying natural rights don't exist, or that God doesn't exist?
    You are misunderstanding the concept of innate rights. My right to life does not mean you have no ability to take that life. It simply means that my life belongs to me, by right. My thoughts belong to me, by right. My hands belong to me, by right. My labor belongs to me, by right. That is what is meant by the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is 'to secure these rights that governments are instituted among men.' The important aspect of that statement is to demonstrate that rights exist outside of the state and are not created by the state.

  6. #776
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    You can support establishing and extending civil rights without attributing them magical powers and origins. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    Yeah, but you're still claiming that rights are only what a dictator gives you, which means you're entitled to nothing, including your natural rights. I can't buy into that premise, magical powers or not.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    You are misunderstanding the concept of innate rights.
    Welcome to the World of Jerry.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Yeah, but you're still claiming that rights are only what a dictator gives you, which means you're entitled to nothing. I can't buy into that premise, magical powers or not.
    Exactly. If rights are a product of the state, then rights cease to be a moral concept; they are simply the product of power and force. Might does not make right. What people who mock the concept of innate rights are actually doing is making the argument that what people like ISIS do, or the Taliban does is not immoral. Throwing a gay man from a tall building is not a rights violation, its just something we don't like. Its not a moral crime since the gay man possessed no more rights than a mosquito. In some societies, women are forbidden to be educated, drive a car, vote or show their faces in public. If they have no innate rights, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with this sort of thing. The people rotting in North Korean prisons have no innate right to liberty so their enslavement and captivity is no moral crime at all. THAT is the dilemma that rights deniers wont confront.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    It does matter, unless you think reason doesn't matter, that human life doesn't matter--that nothing matters.
    WOW!!!! You just attempted to jump the Grand Canyon with a pogo stick!!!!
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-24-15 at 11:02 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Exactly. If rights are a product of the state, then rights cease to be a moral concept; they are simply the product of power and force. Might does not make right. What people who mock the concept of innate rights are actually doing is making the argument that what people like ISIS do, or the Taliban does is not immoral. Throwing a gay man from a tall building is not a rights violation, its just something we don't like. Its not a moral crime since the gay man possessed no more rights than a mosquito. In some societies, women are forbidden to be educated, drive a car, vote or show their faces in public. If they have no innate rights, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with this sort of thing. The people rotting in North Korean prisons have no innate right to liberty so their enslavement and captivity is no moral crime at all. THAT is the dilemma that rights deniers wont confront.
    Tremendous!!!! people who do not believe in the concept of natural rights have no morals..... only believe in force .... believe that might makes right..... are akin to ISIS or the Taliban ... would throw gays off of buildings .... look at people like insects ..... would relegate women to status just love animals .... and share the tactics of North Korea.

    Amazing!!!! Truly awe inspiring amazing!!!!!
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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