View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #761
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually it is key and central to any claim that the founders believed in natural rights because without that statement from the Declaration you have zip - nothing - squat.
    Okay, if you really want to go here, I have Lincoln...

    Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
    ... and Martin Luther King:

    When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    But this, I think, is still the best part:

    This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring."

    And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!

    Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!

    Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California!

    But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!

    Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!

    Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

    And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
    That passage is absolutely orgasmic.

    But, anyway, yeah, I've got something.
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  2. #762
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Rights are whatever you can defend, be it through individual strength or collective teamwork.
    Fidel Castro would agree with you that he earned the "right" to oppress the population of Cuba using such "logic". Rights are inalienable and God-given.

  3. #763
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by SDET View Post
    Fidel Castro would agree with you that he earned the "right" to oppress the population of Cuba using such "logic". Rights are inalienable and God-given.
    You can support establishing and extending civil rights without attributing them magical powers and origins. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

  4. #764
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    fine if you bellive in that, can you express that concept IN america and in american law.
    We did and do just that in the establishment, enforcement, and even change of our Constitution and laws.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #765
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Okay, if you really want to go here, I have Lincoln...



    ... and Martin Luther King:



    But this, I think, is still the best part:



    That passage is absolutely orgasmic.

    But, anyway, yeah, I've got something.
    This is still just you relying on people you admire as support for natural rights. It doesn't prove anything. They were great men in many ways, but still just men and subject to being wrong like the rest of us.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #766
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by SDET View Post
    Fidel Castro would agree with you that he earned the "right" to oppress the population of Cuba using such "logic". Rights are inalienable and God-given.
    Which "God", and what proof do you have that rights came from that God?

    In reality, you can't prove a God exists, let alone that he/she/it gave us "natural rights". Plus, why would this higher power give us "natural" rights, but not other animals?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #767
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Okay, if you really want to go here, I have Lincoln...
    You are badly missing the point. Many here have stated that our founding fathers believed in natural rights. Proof of this is the clear statement in their document - The Declaration of Independence. You bringing up both Lincoln and King does not impact this at all since both men were NOT Founding Fathers.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #768
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This is still just you relying on people you admire as support for natural rights. It doesn't prove anything. They were great men in many ways, but still just men and subject to being wrong like the rest of us.
    No, this is evidence these words actually meant something to some very persuasive people who hold a special place among freedom-loving people the world over and who can't be painted by people like Haymarket as hypocrites. What I rely on is is reason, just like they did. They found it unreasonable for men to enslave other men and to deprive them of their natural rights. They happened to believe the giver of these rights was a divine, providential God, and their message certainly resonates profoundly even today among millions who believe as they did. But I'll settle for the idea that man's ability to reason, experience, and feel places him in a special place in a universe that we haven't come close to understanding. I'll also settle for my ability to use my brain and accept that not everything can be quantified, at least until someone can prove to me why Mao, Hitler, and Stalin didn't collectively deprive 80-90 million people of their natural right to live.
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  9. #769
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are badly missing the point. Many here have stated that our founding fathers believed in natural rights. Proof of this is the clear statement in their document - The Declaration of Independence. You bringing up both Lincoln and King does not impact this at all since both men were NOT Founding Fathers.
    You're right. Lincoln and King weren't Founding Fathers. They got their inspiration from the Founding Fathers, among others, not so much from who they were but from what they wrote. But then where do you think the Founding Fathers got their inspiration from? Marvel Comics?
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  10. #770
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    You're right. Lincoln and King weren't Founding Fathers. They got their inspiration from the Founding Fathers, among others, not so much from who they were but from what they wrote. But then where do you think the Founding Fathers got their inspiration from? Marvel Comics?
    I have no idea - nor does it matter. People get so called inspiration from many different things - some of them very different from one another and even contradictory. So it really does not matter.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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