View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #751
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    oh, so you have it within you to create a right?
    It's within people as a group. It's a collective concept. Rights don't really exist unless you have more than one person in consideration, and then their existence comes from the power to enforce or exert.

    If you are by yourself, no other people anywhere on the planet, do you need rights? No. Because there is no one else there. But as soon you add that second or more people, you start to consider their relationship to you and how they can affect you or you them. That is where rights come into play. And it is dependent on power and ability to defend them, as well as willingness.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Well, the way it arose involved theft on a grand scale, and so what they did is not justified by natural rights. Still, someone could in theory own all that land and not violate anyone's rights.

    Yes, that is correct.
    So if any action you can perform is a right then is it a natural right to operate a car?

    Why are some natural rights codified but others not?
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  3. #753
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I don't concede your point, but, regardless, it has no bearing on the validity of the argument concerning the existence or not of natural rights. It's faulty logic, whether you want to admit it or not. I mean, if you're arguing that "There is no such thing as natural rights because the founders were hypocritical scumbags who clearly didn't believe in them" then my retort is "There are natural rights because Honest Abe and Martin Luther King did believe in them."
    So you're saying, "In the absence of government" rights exists. And that human's aren't capable of creating rights for themselves???

    So basically we're biological transceivers, which really can't really originate our own rights, but rather we receive them from outside ourselves in order to use our built-in moral reasoning mechanism, which allows us to decipher the rights transmitted to us and transfer them to parchment.

    Is that close to what you believe?

  4. #754
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It's within people as a group. It's a collective concept. Rights don't really exist unless you have more than one person in consideration, and then their existence comes from the power to enforce or exert.

    If you are by yourself, no other people anywhere on the planet, do you need rights? No. Because there is no one else there. But as soon you add that second or more people, you start to consider their relationship to you and how they can affect you or you them. That is where rights come into play. And it is dependent on power and ability to defend them, as well as willingness.
    fine if you bellive in that, can you express that concept IN america and in american law.
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  5. #755
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I don't concede your point, but, regardless, it has no bearing on the validity of the argument concerning the existence or not of natural rights. It's faulty logic, whether you want to admit it or not. I mean, if you're arguing that "There is no such thing as natural rights because the founders were hypocritical scumbags who clearly didn't believe in them" then my retort is "There are natural rights because Honest Abe and Martin Luther King did believe in them."
    Actually it is key and central to any claim that the founders believed in natural rights because without that statement from the Declaration you have zip - nothing - squat.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I don't concede your point, but, regardless, it has no bearing on the validity of the argument concerning the existence or not of natural rights. It's faulty logic, whether you want to admit it or not. I mean, if you're arguing that "There is no such thing as natural rights because the founders were hypocritical scumbags who clearly didn't believe in them" then my retort is "There are natural rights because Honest Abe and Martin Luther King did believe in them."
    None of which matters. Whether someone you like believed in a thing or not has no bearing on whether that thing actually exists in the real world. It's just throwing around the argument from authority and that's fallacious. What matters is if it can be demonstrated, entirely separately from who might have liked the idea or not.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    So you're saying, "In the absence of government" rights exists. And that human's aren't capable of creating rights for themselves???
    In the state of nature natural rights exist. Yes, humans can create rights. If, for example, they create a state, they can ensure that it has the right to collect taxes.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    None of which matters. Whether someone you like believed in a thing or not has no bearing on whether that thing actually exists in the real world. It's just throwing around the argument from authority and that's fallacious. What matters is if it can be demonstrated, entirely separately from who might have liked the idea or not.
    Explain that to Haymarket, please. He's the one who keeps bringing it up.
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  9. #759
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The only diference between a Natural Right and a Human Right is that a Natural Right cannot be taken away or given up. Other than that they are identical.
    Who makes that distinction?


    You're talking about Civil Rights, which are not the topic of this thread.
    No, I am comparing natural rights to civil rights to distinguish between the two, just as you brought up human rights to distinguish between the two.

    A Natural Right is any Human Right which cannot be forcibly denied by any means whatsoever. That distinction is the reason for the diferent lables. Can you think of any Human Rights which cannot be given up or forcibly denied?
    Where are you getting that this is a distinction between natural and human rights that people actually use? I don't know of any natural rights philosopher that uses the term in the way you are. You are saying natural rights do not exist by redefining the term.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Who makes that distinction?
    The dictionary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Where are you getting that this is a distinction between natural and human rights that people actually use?
    The dictionary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    You are saying natural rights do not exist by redefining the term.
    I don't know any philosophers who have written modern dictionaries.

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