View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #741
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    we aren't talking about attribution....we're talking existence.
    why on earth would you even support such a notion of "thou shalt not kill"... if there is no right to live, there is no duty not to kill.
    There is advantage to peace. It's prudent to discourage killing, even if it's not provided by supernatural decree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    what the holy ****?... redistributing liberties?
    where are you coming up with this stuff?... i'm curious to read your sources, if only so i can figure out just what you are talking about.
    This is fundamental political theory stuff. All men are not created equal, their collective capabilities are pooled together in society and divided by society, according to the liberties that society grants. Without such redistribution, we'd be all subject to the single Goliath of a society. Instead, the Goliath relinquishes some of his might, and the David is given access to it.

  2. #742
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    What way is that? Enlighten us to why you think you can support "Thou shalt not kill" but others shouldn't (since there is, in your view, no universal, natural right to life).
    It's prudent to have a peaceful society. Killing doesn't increase productivity or peace.

  3. #743
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    It's prudent to have a peaceful society. Killing doesn't increase productivity or peace.
    Sometimes, eh? Not always? There are times in which general mayhem promotes increased productivity and it's imprudent to have a peaceful society? When might that be?
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  4. #744
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Sometimes, eh? Not always? There are times in which general mayhem promotes increased productivity and it's imprudent to have a peaceful society? When might that be?
    General mayhem doesn't increase productivity of desirable resources.
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  5. #745
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    You said, "Actions speak louder than words." The way I took that was "Don't listen to these guys because what they did goes way beyond being hypocrites" or something to that effect. So, if you're not attempting to poison the well, what's your point as it relates to natural rights? Some of these guys held slaves. So what? I mean, even Mao was right once in a while. He certainly knew how to kick the Kuomintang's ass.
    What I am doing is illustrating the purpose of the Declaration and attempting to educate the naive and gullible.

    The "so what" your refer to is central and key in any determination as to IF the Founders truly believed in natural rights as stated in the Declaration. And they obviously did not rendering the statement to simple public relations hype.
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  6. #746
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    we aren't talking about attribution....we're talking existence.
    why on earth would you even support such a notion of "thou shalt not kill"... if there is no right to live, there is no duty not to kill.


    what the holy ****?... redistributing liberties?
    where are you coming up with this stuff?... i'm curious to read your sources, if only so i can figure out just what you are talking about.
    Firstly, it's "murder", not kill. The prohibition is against unjust killing, not killing per-se.

    Second, be it from a god or a government the command is one to maintain order, not to protect a right. All authority comes from violence and this comand places the violence within the pattern of behavior the god or government desires.

  7. #747
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The "so what" your refer to is central and key in any determination as to IF the Founders truly believed in natural rights as stated in the Declaration.
    I don't concede your point, but, regardless, it has no bearing on the validity of the argument concerning the existence or not of natural rights. It's faulty logic, whether you want to admit it or not. I mean, if you're arguing that "There is no such thing as natural rights because the founders were hypocritical scumbags who clearly didn't believe in them" then my retort is "There are natural rights because Honest Abe and Martin Luther King did believe in them."
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Let me stop you there. ANY right can be "taken away" in the sense that a person can be deprived of it. The issue, though, is whether someone who isn't the grantor of the right can "take it away" in the ethical or legal sense. In the case of natural rights, we're talking about a moral or ethical state of affairs. Perhaps you don't believe in morality; you just assume that life exists and there's no point to it. Whatever rights you get come only from a beneficial human. If that's the case, then our discussion is over, because no amount of moral proselytizing on my part will sway you. But from a legal standpoint if the state says, for example, that you have a right to be repaid for a debt and I just say, "Screw it. I'm not repaying you," according to your logic your right to repayment ends there. I mean, if you're going to argue that someone other than the grantor of a right can "take it away" then, well, I just took your right away.
    Ethics are subjective and even ethics of a group are agreed upon by the group. Laws are relative and can be changed by a number of different means.
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  9. #749
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    so your of the mind that man simply created these rights out of thin air, absent reasoning or premise?
    Reasoning is involved in how our rights came about. It is not because they are "natural" rights. It is what is seen as best and fair for the majority people, at least when speaking about those rights that many view as "natural". Although our ability to reason is "natural", that does not make those rights that people view as important or ones "everyone" has or should have as "natural".

    Humans are pretty intelligent and create a lot of things "out of thin air", especially abstract concepts such as rights. These things also seem to change, hence "abstract".
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  10. #750
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Reasoning is involved in how our rights came about. It is not because they are "natural" rights. It is what is seen as best and fair for the majority people, at least when speaking about those rights that many view as "natural". Although our ability to reason is "natural", that does not make those rights that people view as important or ones "everyone" has or should have as "natural".

    Humans are pretty intelligent and create a lot of things "out of thin air", especially abstract concepts such as rights. These things also seem to change, hence "abstract".
    oh, so you have it within you to create a right?
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