View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #711
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You're talking about Human Rights, and I agree, but this thread is about Natural Rights.
    My description applies to both, and I don't really see a distinction as far as my comment applies between the two. A better contrast would be natural rights vs. legal rights. A natural right is one that is claimed to exist even when it is not enforced by the government or society as a whole, while a legal right is a right specifically created by the government or society, for the benefit of its members. A person has a natural right to life, but depending on the type of society/government (or lack thereof) the legal right may not exist, rending the natural right rather meaningless in practice.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    My description applies to both, and I don't really see a distinction as far as my comment applies between the two.
    The only diference between a Natural Right and a Human Right is that a Natural Right cannot be taken away or given up. Other than that they are identical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    A better contrast would be natural rights vs. legal rights. A natural right is one that is claimed to exist even when it is not enforced by the government or society as a whole, while a legal right is a right specifically created by the government or society, for the benefit of its members. A person has a natural right to life, but depending on the type of society/government (or lack thereof) the legal right may not exist, rending the natural right rather meaningless in practice.
    You're talking about Civil Rights, which are not the topic of this thread.

    A Natural Right is any Human Right which cannot be forcibly denied by any means whatsoever. That distinction is the reason for the diferent lables. Can you think of any Human Rights which cannot be given up or forcibly denied?

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    they are enumerated in the DiO, and the US Constitution... they have been recorded, explained, and argued for thousands of years through the philosophical writings of numerous philosophers and political thinkers.

    soooo.. now that we have cleared up, in the affirmative, the question of "are they real?"... we can move on.
    Some people wrote them down, yes. Those people were wrong, provably so.

  4. #714
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I think we first got on the subject when someone mentioned Jefferson owned slaves. Yeah, he owned slaves. He was also a brilliant writer. That's why the committee tasked to come up with the Declaration of Independence asked him to draft it.
    None of which proves that what he wrote was factually true.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    they are enumerated in the DiO, and the US Constitution... they have been recorded, explained, and argued for thousands of years through the philosophical writings of numerous philosophers and political thinkers.

    soooo.. now that we have cleared up, in the affirmative, the question of "are they real?"... we can move on.
    That still doesn't prove they're real, it just proves they've been popular. Try again.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #716
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    rejected as contrary to reality. its a silly argument. Even if Jefferson did not believe that those rights applied to ALL MEN so what. Your silly attempt to try to undermine the scope of the BIll of Rights based on that claim is beyond bogus
    There is indeed something going on here that is contrary to reality. Sadly for you it is your posts in which you continually claim that Jefferson believed in something that he did not believe. And to support you change the actual words that Jefferson wrote in his clear statement about what you would call natural rights in the Declaration of Independence.

    You are attempting to substitute your own version of what you want reality to be for the real words and action of Jefferson.


    Why do you insist upon denying reality and dwelling in the delusion that the words Jefferson wrote are different than the actual words I have quoted many many times from the Declaration of Independence?

    Why do you insist upon constructing your own false convenient mental refuge which is contrary to the actual statement Jefferson made?
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    a vacuous reply referring to a similarly vacuous reply does not an argument make.
    That describes this post of yours perfectly.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    such as the belief that natural rights do not exist ?
    If anyone wants to push forward their belief about the existence of something - the full and total responsibility to prove that existence is upon that individual to prove it with verifiable evidence . A person denying that belief has absolutely no responsibility to prove anything in the absence of verifiable evidence offered by the proponent of the belief system - in this case the existence of natural rights.

    You can assert and claim that there are three inch blue monkeys made of flame who play a version of professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus. The responsibility to have that accepted as fact is entirely upon the proponent of such a claim. In fact, neither nor anyone else can disprove such a claim since it would involve proving a negative.
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  9. #719
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Keep in mind these men had already achieved varying degrees of success under British rule. Some of them became tremendously wealthy. It's certainly not like they would have been destitute if they hadn't risen up against the British. Not all of them were slave holders, and some of them only reluctantly agreed to commit what amounted to treason. One notable example is John Adams, who was on the committee to draft the Declaration. So whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, these men did risk everything, including their lives, to gain independence for the colonies from Britain. And before you lambaste people like Adams who agreed to permit slavery in the new union, there wouldn't have been one without out it. They needed votes, and the only way to get them was compromise with the hope that slavery would one day become a thing of the past, which it ultimately did only at great cost.
    Yes indeed, Adams and the others did compromise. The sad reality is that your claim that they had to compromise involved nothing of their own.

    They compromised with the lives of others that they claimed others had a natural right to. And in doing so betrayed their own statement of natural rights in their document the Declaration of Independence.

    They compromised with the liberty of others that they claimed others had a natural right to. And in doing so betrayed their own statement of natural rights in their document the Declaration of Independence.

    They compromised with the pursuit of happiness that they claimed others had a natural right to. And in doing so betrayed their own statement of natural rights in their document the Declaration of Independence.

    And in the case of Jefferson and the other signers who were slave owners, they continued to engage in an activity which denied the so called natural rights they had signed a statement of day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year.

    So we have the words of Jefferson and the others and we have the actions and deeds of Jefferson and the others to hold up and compare.

    So do we reject the time old adage that ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS and now accept the premise that ones actions for a lifetime mean precious little or even nothing compared to one statement to the contrary given to justify separating from England?

    Yes, perhaps the extremely naive would accept such a ridiculous claim.

    Yes, the hopelessly gullible would accept such a ridiculous claim.

    Yes, perhaps the political virgin would accept such a ridiculous claim.

    Yes, perhaps the blind zealot so shut out from reality would accept such a claim because to do otherwise threatens to destroy his entire self imposed belief system as reality takes a sledge hammer to its foundations.

    So which of those apply here?
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Then how are people not entitled to the 'right' to self-defense? You claim we dont, that we MUST let a judge and jury decide.
    You're conflating "natural rights" with rights dictated by society.

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