View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #701
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Why should anyone care what Jefferson believed when we're trying to establish what actually exists in objective reality? Jefferson's opinions mean exactly what everyone else's opinions do. Jack squat.
    your concept of "existence" is flawed. you are trying to apply existence as it pertains to say a Building or a car or a court case to the existence of something like Catholicism, Communism, Confucianism or Natural rights
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  2. #702
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I did in post 689. Did you miss it? Do you not understand it?
    a vacuous reply referring to a similarly vacuous reply does not an argument make.

  3. #703
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    beliefs originate in the mind and that is where they reside.
    such as the belief that natural rights do not exist ?

  4. #704
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Tell it to Turtle as he keeps insisting it applied to only white men of property. What you seem to minimize by simply calling him a 'hypocrite' does not do justice to the actual events of Jeffersons life where he owned over 100 slaves for decades. that sort of actions goes far far far beyond mere hypocrisy. It shows he never believed the hollow words that others want to deceive themselves in believing matter more than actual daily actions for his entire adult life.
    Keep in mind these men had already achieved varying degrees of success under British rule. Some of them became tremendously wealthy. It's certainly not like they would have been destitute if they hadn't risen up against the British. Not all of them were slave holders, and some of them only reluctantly agreed to commit what amounted to treason. One notable example is John Adams, who was on the committee to draft the Declaration. So whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, these men did risk everything, including their lives, to gain independence for the colonies from Britain. And before you lambaste people like Adams who agreed to permit slavery in the new union, there wouldn't have been one without out it. They needed votes, and the only way to get them was compromise with the hope that slavery would one day become a thing of the past, which it ultimately did only at great cost.
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  5. #705
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Many would be wrong.
    well, I'm not one that believes they are synonymous, but i'm also not one to positively declare those who do are wrong.

    from my understanding , Human rights are a more comprehensive list of rights that primarily stem from, or are intimately related to, natural rights...but i haven't put much time into direct comparisons of the two.

  6. #706
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    your concept of "existence" is flawed. you are trying to apply existence as it pertains to say a Building or a car or a court case to the existence of something like Catholicism, Communism, Confucianism or Natural rights
    But I can define Catholicism, communism, Confucianism and show that those things actually exist in the real world. You can't do that with natural rights. You cannot show in any way, shape or form that they are real. Come on, this is getting ridiculous, at least try to limp away with some modicum of self-respect intact.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #707
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But I can define Catholicism, communism, Confucianism and show that those things actually exist in the real world. You can't do that with natural rights. You cannot show in any way, shape or form that they are real. Come on, this is getting ridiculous, at least try to limp away with some modicum of self-respect intact.
    how does "catholicism" exist you are going to lose this argument. natural rights are something the founders believed in. this country and the constitution are based on those beliefs as surely as the vatican is based on the belief the that pope is God's bishop on earth

    how do you prove the existence of that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  8. #708
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Why should anyone care what Jefferson believed when we're trying to establish what actually exists in objective reality? Jefferson's opinions mean exactly what everyone else's opinions do. Jack squat.
    I think we first got on the subject when someone mentioned Jefferson owned slaves. Yeah, he owned slaves. He was also a brilliant writer. That's why the committee tasked to come up with the Declaration of Independence asked him to draft it.
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  9. #709
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    well, I'm not one that believes they are synonymous, but i'm also not one to positively declare those who do are wrong.

    from my understanding , Human rights are a more comprehensive list of rights that primarily stem from, or are intimately related to, natural rights...but i haven't put much time into direct comparisons of the two.
    It's easy to know if someone is wrong. Compair their statment with the facts, and if the two don't match, the statement is wrong. Very simple.

    Human Rights, Natural Rights, and Civil Rights all have diferent definitions, which means they're not synonymous. Anyone claiming they are is not stating the truth.

    You don't need to be a super-human or even well educated to make such an observation, just an avarage person of reasonable intelligence. If you don't think you're qualified to make such an observation then you are insulting yourself.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-21-15 at 10:25 PM.

  10. #710
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But I can define Catholicism, communism, Confucianism and show that those things actually exist in the real world. You can't do that with natural rights. You cannot show in any way, shape or form that they are real. Come on, this is getting ridiculous, at least try to limp away with some modicum of self-respect intact.
    they are enumerated in the DiO, and the US Constitution... they have been recorded, explained, and argued for thousands of years through the philosophical writings of numerous philosophers and political thinkers.

    soooo.. now that we have cleared up, in the affirmative, the question of "are they real?"... we can move on.

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