View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #61
    Sage

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    When you do.
    You should already know my answer.

  2. #62
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    and yet they based the US Constitution .. Supreme law of the land.. on certain natural rights (as well as legal rights)
    Name one natural right in the constitution. Also, if it were natural, wouldn't it not need to be in the constitution? If we had a natural right to free speech, wouldn't we not need the first amendment? And if we do need the first amendment to have that right, then it's a right we created, and has nothing to do with nature.

    I return to my original test. Please demonstrate some method for determining what is or is not a natural right.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  3. #63
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Name one natural right in the constitution. Also, if it were natural, wouldn't it not need to be in the constitution? If we had a natural right to free speech, wouldn't we not need the first amendment? And if we do need the first amendment to have that right, then it's a right we created, and has nothing to do with nature.
    life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    our government was set up to protect rights... so it makes perfect sense that rights are enumerated in the Constitution (the inclusion of the 9th amendment provides protections against the arguments provided to NOT enumerate rights)

    I return to my original test. Please demonstrate some method for determining what is or is not a natural right.
    well, for me, such a test would comprise of reflecting whether or not a right is dependent on an external authority.
    take the right to vote... without an external authority, the right to vote is rather absent.... the entire mechanism wouldn't exist.. it's entirely dependent on that external authority.
    now take speech... does it take an external authority to permit you to feel entitlement to express yourself though speech?... or are naturally entitled to speak your mind due to your humanity?

    that's not to say such rights can't be violated... they surely can... and the person that has their right violated surely understands that something is wrong when that happens ( which further points to the existence of natural rights)

    property is an easy one to demonstrate.... simply go take a toy from a toddler and you'll be able to tell immediately what that lil human feels naturally entitled to

  4. #64
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    You should already know my answer.
    Blind faith? That seems to be all you've got, that's why people laugh at libertarianism.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #65
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    The only natural 'right' I believe exists is the right to do whatever you want until something else stops you. This is the only 'right' that seems to be universal throughout nature, rather than something made up by humans, that applies only to humans.

    For example, a lion has a right to eat an antelope, unless the antelope is fast enough to get away.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  6. #66
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Blind faith? That seems to be all you've got, that's why people laugh at libertarianism.
    Yes, it's just blind faith that makes me recognize that I am in control over my own body.

  7. #67
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Blind faith? That seems to be all you've got, that's why people laugh at libertarianism.
    it seems to me you people are laughing at the United States, the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, the UN declaration of human rights, the social contract, Abolitionists,etc etc... and about 2000 years of philosophers whom have developed an understanding of rights.

  8. #68
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    No, but society needs to believe in it for its own good.
    "We all of us know down here that politics is a tough game. And I don't think there's any point in being Irish if you don't know that the world is going to break your heart eventually."-Daniel Patrick Moynihan, December 5, 1963

  9. #69
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    our government was set up to protect rights... so it makes perfect sense that rights are enumerated in the Constitution (the inclusion of the 9th amendment provides protections against the arguments provided to NOT enumerate rights)
    I'm all about unenumerated rights.

    well, for me, such a test would comprise of reflecting whether or not a right is dependent on an external authority.
    take the right to vote... without an external authority, the right to vote is rather absent.... the entire mechanism wouldn't exist.. it's entirely dependent on that external authority.
    now take speech... does it take an external authority to permit you to feel entitlement to express yourself though speech?... or are naturally entitled to speak your mind due to your humanity?
    I don't think rights have anything to do with feeling entitled to things. Plenty of people feel entitled to things that society doesn't determine people should have a right to. And it certainly takes external force to ensure that you aren't prevented from speaking your mind. I would call that community and society rather than authority. I don't think that rights are handed down from above, but are secured by a people. That takes a group. The only time when you can really claim rights without group consensus is if you are completely alone.

    that's not to say such rights can't be violated... they surely can... and the person that has their right violated surely understands that something is wrong when that happens ( which further points to the existence of natural rights)
    It seems rather egocentric to suggest that every past society had these rights but they were being violated constantly, and that future societies won't have rights that we've never dreamed of. It also suggests that we are progressing towards some perfect society that was predetermined by nature, rather than improving upon and replacing flawed human constructs. Neither of those ideas seem at all reasonable.

    property is an easy one to demonstrate.... simply go take a toy from a toddler and you'll be able to tell immediately what that lil human feels naturally entitled to
    Again, rights are not about feelings. Rights are about not stopping people from doing things or empowering people to do things.

    Ultimately, if nature granted us rights, they would apply in circumstances besides just human interaction. A hungry lion is never going to respect your right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. But other people will. People create rights. Each society creates its own rights.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  10. #70
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    it seems to me you people are laughing at the United States, the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, the UN declaration of human rights, the social contract, Abolitionists,etc etc... and about 2000 years of philosophers whom have developed an understanding of rights.
    When there are irrational claims made about those things, yes. There are a lot of people, particularly libertarians, who treat all of those things as though they were magic. They're not. There isn't an "understanding" of rights, there are simply claims made about rights. We have to go and look at those particular claims and see if they stand up rationally and logically. Most of the time, they don't. That doesn't stop rights from existing, it just means they aren't magical as a lot of people seem to think.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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