View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
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    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #651
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that has nothing to do with reality. You pretend that Jefferson's failure to include blacks some how means he didn't believe that WHITE MEN (citizens) had natural rights
    Funny thing is, you and I have debunked him multiple times on natural rights yet, he's resistant to facts, logic and history. Ironic given his alleged background.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  2. #652
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that has nothing to do with reality. You pretend that Jefferson's failure to include blacks some how means he didn't believe that WHITE MEN (citizens) had natural rights
    Jefferson said that ALL MEN had rights including liberty. He did not say white men of property only had rights.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Funny thing is, you and I have debunked him multiple times on natural rights yet, he's resistant to facts, logic and history. Ironic given his alleged background.
    The only real FACT about natural rights is that it is an unprovable theory which one believes because they want to believe it. Nobody can PROVE it exists with FACTS.

    But perhaps there is a special limited edition RIGHT LIBERTARIAN version of the Declaration of Independence which has scratched out the offending ALL MEN and replaced it with WHITE MEN OF PROPERTY? After all, right libertarians reject lots of reality in favor of their own alternate universe in which beliefs and axioms replace facts and known reality so it would not surprise me to find out they have also selectively changed anything which might prove they are full of stuff and nonsense - like the actual text of the Declaration of Independence.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-21-15 at 08:59 AM.
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  4. #654
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Jefferson said that ALL MEN had rights including liberty. He did not say white men of property only had rights.
    and that has ZERO, nada, ZILCH to do with the scope of the rights in the bill of rights

    you seem to think that because Jefferson didn't include slaves, that somehow means that Jefferson (who did NOT WRITE the Bill of RIghts) didn't believe in natural rights for citizens

    completely disingenuous and bogus argument

    you have argued that these founders (as opposed to the authors of the BOR) really didn't believe in natural rights and thus the natural rights recognized in the BOR are much less a restriction on your beloved federal government than us freedom advocates assert.

    a completely unsupported jump you made and its a completely specious argument
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  5. #655
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The only real FACT about natural rights is that it is an unprovable theory which one believes because they want to believe it. Nobody can PROVE it exists with FACTS.

    But perhaps there is a special limited edition RIGHT LIBERTARIAN version of the Declaration of Independence which has scratched out the offending ALL MEN and replaced it with WHITE MEN OF PROPERTY? After all, right libertarians reject lots of reality in favor of their own alternate universe in which beliefs and axioms replace facts and known reality so it would not surprise me to find out they have also selectively changed anything which might prove they are full of stuff and nonsense - like the actual text of the Declaration of Independence.
    Does Roman Catholicism or Islam exist?

    you are trying to apply one version of existence to a philosophy improperly in order to pretend that the bill of rights do not prevent the sort of government idiocy you crave
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    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
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  6. #656
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The only real FACT about natural rights is that it is an unprovable theory which one believes because they want to believe it. Nobody can PROVE it exists with FACTS.
    You're right. No one can prove you can't give away your right to pursue happiness or that you'd attempt to exercise it in a state of nature. I just accept it as common sense. (I could have called it "self-evident.") Perhaps you can prove the contrary with facts? I'd bet my left nut you can't.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But perhaps there is a special limited edition RIGHT LIBERTARIAN version of the Declaration of Independence which has scratched out the offending ALL MEN and replaced it with WHITE MEN OF PROPERTY?
    I just accept that when Jefferson wrote "all men are created equal" he spoke the truth and meant ALL MEN, even if he was a hypocrite. Look at this sentence from the passage I quoted earlier from his Notes on the State of Virginia:

    No man will labour for himself who can make another (Another what? Man? ) labour for him.
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  8. #658
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I just accept that when Jefferson wrote "all men are created equal" he spoke the truth and meant ALL MEN, even if he was a hypocrite. Look at this sentence from the passage I quoted earlier from his Notes on the State of Virginia:
    I think all men are created equal, and I don't think that has anything to do with Natural Rights. Don't let hey market derail you like that.

  9. #659
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Then you are changing the meaning of 'in-' or 'unalienable' from meaning 'is not subject to being taken away from of given away by the possessor' to 'should not be taken away from or given away by the possessor'. All you have to do is read the dictionary definitions to know that.

    Now you appear to be quibbling, because something entirely 'conceptual' IS hypothetical.

    In a hypothetical sense, yes.

    Sorry, I zoned out here because what your constitution says has no relevance to me.
    Well our dictionary definitions must have no relevance to you either so far as the definitions of inalienable/unalienable and hypothetical go. I know it is difficult for non-Americans to understand the concept of unalienable rights as the basis of what true liberty is because you've never experienced it. Our Founders understood it quite well and a lot of us Americans understand it quite well today too. Unfortunately we seem to have a sizable group of Americans with no clue about what that was all about, who resent those who do, and who would dismantle it in a heartbeat. And that is a tragedy.
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  10. #660
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomkat364 View Post
    The belief in a higher power is exactly what I had referenced. They do not specify a Christian God, or Hindu god, or any other specific god. But they definitely are not conveying 'natural rights' as existing outside of a theistic worldview. There is a constant problem with the term religion, as this more accurately means a group belief, and I should not have been using religion to describe the content of the DOI. So I will restate my post: Using the DOI to justify a belief in natural rights existing without a theistic/diety/higher power misses a key component of the writers' conviction. And since 'the nation as a whole was built for a religious and moral people', it is impossible to ignore that influence on the Constitution and DOI. An atheist or agnostic simply cannot embrace the preamble to the DOI without contradicting their own worldview.
    i will not deny that influence.

    the u.s. constitution itself is not a religious document ...however... it does embody the "principles" of the DOI, which those principles are recognized by u.s. federal law.

    this part is very much correct.

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