View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #621
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I tell you what. Let me just admit that I can't prove God's "real" from an objective or empirical standpoint, just like I can't prove little green men with ray guns occupy the cosmos even though I think we're not alone in the universe. Now, if you're going to insist that what we call "God," or what philosophers envision as some sort of constant "force" in the universe that we're incapable of measuring or understanding, doesn't exist, then show your hand now, please. I'm betting you can't. So instead of us wasting everyone's time on this point let me just call my god the "God of Reason" who tells me killing millions of people is wrong.
    It doesn't matter how you frame your definition of gods or natural rights, if you cannot demonstrate that either of them exist in any meaningful way in the real world, then they are just illusions. That is what we're pointing out to you. It rests entirely on your shoulders to demonstrate such things are real. If you cannot, and in both cases, you freely admit that you cannot, then nobody is obligated in any way, shape or form to take you seriously. I don't care what you call it. I care what you can demonstrate. You've got nothing. Just be honest about it already.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #622
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you don't seem to understand why I find natural rights to be so important. they are part of a philosophy that exists. trying to impose one concept of existence on "things" that are not defined that way is stupid. Does say "roman catholicism" exist? or angry atheism? sure they do-but not the same way say Iron ore or helium gas exists. same with Natural rights vs. a concrete block
    No, I don't understand why you think natural rights exist at all. What you've got there is what we call wishful thinking. It's a fantasy. It's something that appeals to you on a purely emotional level, not on an intellectual one. You have no rational justification for these claims you make but it makes you feel good to keep making them. That's why the whole concept is laughable and why nobody is taking you seriously.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #623
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, I don't understand why you think natural rights exist at all. What you've got there is what we call wishful thinking. It's a fantasy. It's something that appeals to you on a purely emotional level, not on an intellectual one. You have no rational justification for these claims you make but it makes you feel good to keep making them. That's why the whole concept is laughable and why nobody is taking you seriously.
    dismissed as psychobabble. the emotion is all on you dude. and as to taking people seriously?" LOL-the angry atheist nonsense wears old



  4. #624
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It doesn't matter how you frame your definition of gods or natural rights, if you cannot demonstrate that either of them exist in any meaningful way in the real world, then they are just illusions. That is what we're pointing out to you. It rests entirely on your shoulders to demonstrate such things are real. If you cannot, and in both cases, you freely admit that you cannot, then nobody is obligated in any way, shape or form to take you seriously. I don't care what you call it. I care what you can demonstrate. You've got nothing. Just be honest about it already.
    You know, twenty-three centuries of Western Civilization going back to the Stoics should count for something. Over the course of that time, some pretty smart logicians and philosophers have presented their ideas on moral systems that make a lot more sense than yours, which basically seems to be there is no morality, there are no ethics, there are no logical rules to govern behavior--there only "is." I'd rather be wrong and go down like General Custer in a hail of arrows by hitching my wagon to someone like Cicero than be right and live in a reality in which human life is perceived as being nothing short of worthless. Fortunately, I don't think I'm wrong--even if I can't prove it!
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  5. #625
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    You blew your whole argument right there. That's exactly the point myself and others are making, and you essentially just confirmed it, though you don't want to.
    If someone takes your life they can and have taken every single thing you claim they cannot take.
    You are no longer able to do any of them. You want simple? That's simple.


    A dead person has the natural right to remain silent.

  6. #626
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    A dead person has the natural right to remain silent.
    How do you know? Are you his lawyer?
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  7. #627
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    While natural rights aren't granted by the state, they can be upheld and enforced by the state. According to our founding document, securing natural rights is the principal purpose of civil government.
    You put your finger right on the folly: if a thing cannot be taken away, you don't need to secure it. Natural Rights by definition cannot be taken away, thus we don't need a government to secure them.

    We need a government to secure rights which can be taken away, which by definition are not Natural Rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Living is a natural right.
    No it is not, because through murder or suicide you can be alienated from your right to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Voting is a civil right.
    Correct, voting (for Congress and Senate, but not President) is a right granted by the Constitution that you would not otherwise have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Both can create cause for a person to seek remedy or damages in a civil court.
    That your right to life can be damaged proves it is not inalienable and thus not a Natural Right.

  8. #628
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It doesn't matter how you frame your definition of gods or natural rights, if you cannot demonstrate that either of them exist in any meaningful way in the real world, then they are just illusions. That is what we're pointing out to you. It rests entirely on your shoulders to demonstrate such things are real. If you cannot, and in both cases, you freely admit that you cannot, then nobody is obligated in any way, shape or form to take you seriously. I don't care what you call it. I care what you can demonstrate. You've got nothing. Just be honest about it already.
    what do you mean by "real"?

  9. #629
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    How do you know? Are you his lawyer?
    He's gonna take the fifth on that question!



  10. #630
    Politically Correct

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This topic seems to have popped up in a few threads recently so I thought I'd put this together. Put simply do you believe in the concept of natural rights? That is to say rights that are "not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable".

    Personally I don't. I think that Hobbes had it right when he intimated that the only 'natural right' that a human being possesses is the right to strive for their own survival. Everything else exists only at the sufferance of your own strength or the kindness of others. It is part of what makes civilization so essential and so valuable, because by creating a society we attempt to lift ourselves out of that war of all against all. This allows for freedom of speech, property rights, press freedoms, freedom of worship, etc. Absent organized society these 'rights' would be purely theoretical.
    A little late to be joining the thread, and probably will not add much, but here goes.

    I don't really understand the concept of "natural" rights. Rights only truly exist if infringement can be prevented or results in some kind of liability. That generally requires some sort of civil action, making all rights in essence civil.

    I think the concept makes sense in countries that don't have a Constitution - certain rights become in a sense inalienable, even though no provision has been made for them by statute. But I think that still makes them a form of civil right.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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