View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #591
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    You blew your whole argument right there. That's exactly the point myself and others are making, and you essentially just confirmed it, though you don't want to. If someone takes your life they can and have taken every single thing you claim they cannot take. You are no longer able to do any of them. You want simple? That's simple.


    Recognizing that someone's rights can be abused or repressed does not make them any less a right, and doesn't make the usurpation of it "right" either.



    I don't particularly care what we call them, as along as we call them something that sounds absolute and not-to-be-infringed-upon. "Rights" worked for the Founders. We could also call them "Liberties the Oppression of Which Justify Instantly Killing Your Ass" and I'd be fine with that too, though it is a bit cumbersome.


    Other things we could name them, instead of "rights"...

    "**** I will ****ing Kill You Over."
    "Ways that Nobody Including Government Should Ever **** With You."
    "The Absolute Minimum Respect For Your Humanity That Everyone Should Always Show, On Pain Of Possible Death or Dismemberment."
    Or the classic...
    "Man I Wouldn't Do That **** If I Was You..."
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-20-15 at 06:50 PM.

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  2. #592
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Sorry but the way I define words, destroying something or denying a person ability to do something is not the same thing as taking something. As I said, that concept is so simple to me. And it seems so difficult for others.
    It's difficult for others because it's utterly illogical.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Okay, let's try to make this really simple. If I'm sitting in class and I steal five cents from my neighbor's lunch money, is the nickel "mine"? I'm guessing your answer is "Yes"?
    Bad analogy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    To me, calling them "ideals" makes it too easy for politicians to say 'oh we fell a bit short on respecting this limitation but hey, it's an ideal and we all fall short of those don't we... "
    Fair point, and yeah, they probably would. Though the way it is now they throw out phrases like "compelling interest" to deny rights. Same end result.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  3. #593
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Apparently, he's not the only one who needs convincing, but the other day 36% of respondents professed a belief in natural rights. It's gone up three points to 39%. Whee!
    I imagine the ratio is somewhat higher than that 39 or 40% actually. DP's policy of allowing non members participate in polls very often skews the actual results somewhat. I would like to know what the tally is when only members are counted.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #594
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Recognizing that someone's rights can be abused or repressed does not make them any less a right, and doesn't make the usurpation of it "right" either.

    I don't particularly care what we call them, as along as we call them something that sounds absolute and not-to-be-infringed-upon. "Rights" worked for the Founders. We could also call them "Liberties the Oppression of Which Justify Instantly Killing Your Ass" and I'd be fine with that too, though it is a bit cumbersome.
    But if we make them sound absolute, then go on to do end runs around them anyway, it cheapens the base concept.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    But if we make them sound absolute, then go on to do end runs around them anyway, it cheapens the base concept.


    Then quit doing end runs around them.

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  6. #596
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you completely miss the point. the issue is not whether natural rights exist-in the same manner that a tree or a car exists-but why natural rights are such an important part of our legal fabric

    look, i get your almost fanatical hatred of religion and your attempts to obliterate religion from your world. but that is not relevant here.
    But you're the one differentiating "natural" rights from other kinds of rights. If there is no difference, if you cannot demonstrate that they're real, then just drop the "natural" part. You cannot justify it, why should anyone take it seriously?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    There are plenty of reasons, including reason. I certainly don't take as "fact" something that hasn't been proven.
    Then you ought to be able to present a solid argument in proper logical form to explain it and demonstrate that it's real. Go ahead. We'll wait.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Well, no. As I said, only the grantor of a right can "take it away," if by "take it away" we're referring to "alienate" as it's understood by pretty much everyone with one possible exception. If the state grants you a right to be repaid for a debt but then I renege on repaying you, according to you I've "taken away" your right to be repaid. Honestly, that's one right I'd call pretty much worthless. The people who founded this country happened to believe that natural rights aren't granted be men, so no man can "take them away" as you apparently maintain. Now, if you're going to maintain that there are no natural rights, then proceed with your proof, please.
    Natural Rights can't be given by the state, so if the state gave you a given right, that right is not a Natural Right. More likely it's a Civil Right.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Anyway, in a state of nature, there is no civil law. That's a societal invention.
    Right.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But nobody can take away your right to live, to breathe, to hope, to aspire, to seek your own comfort or happiness, to believe what you believe, to worship as you choose, to think, to speak what you think, to create, to rejoice, to grieve, to inspire, to explore, to wonder, to choose to defend or protect yourself or what you love or what you have.
    So you're just going to ignore the crime of murder and keep living in fantasy land.

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