View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #581
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    translation-you don't like the correct interpretation of the Bill of rights

    why not just come out and say it?
    For at least the fiftieth time - "THE CORRECT INTERPRETATION" being the Turtle interpretation. Like they used to say in the old Marvel comics - 'nuff' said'.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Perhaps. Yet without ideals or goals, we are nothing more than savages are we not?
    I would feel more comfortable if we called them "ideals". More accurate, IMO.

    And yes, of course we should have them, but to me calling them "rights" is euphemistically misleading.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    ...and somebody could come along and kill you and take all that away.
    Nope. They can only prevent me from exercising it. They cannot take my life and then have a life they can use. They cannot take away my ability to think and then have an extra ability to use. They cannot take away my capacity to pursue happiness and have more happiness themselves. Nor can I sell or give any of those things to anybody else. The purpose of the U.S. Constitution was to recognize and protect the unalienable rights of the people so that they, for the first time in the history of the world, would be able to live in liberty and exercise those rights without interference.

    To me that is such a simple concept. But for so many, it seems to be almost impossible to understand and appreciate.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Not at all. Most people who believe what God gives, God can take away. If He chooses not to do so, that makes him no less God. Since nobody is wise enough to know all that God is, such things are unknowable. If we could so neatly specify what God is or what God does, then He would not be much of a God.

    "God given" is the term used by the Founders to express their understanding of why the rights we are born with are unalienable as well as to honor the One from whom they believed all morality and ethics comes. Other philosophers before them from Socrates to Plato to Cicero to Otis to Hobbes to Locke et al used different terms to describe the concept. The most common is translated 'natural rights' in English. But the concept is the same. Natural or unalienable or God given rights are incorporated into the natural state of man. To have and exercise them requires participation or contribution by no other person and they cannot be sold or bartered or given away to anybody.
    Yes, I think I see your point. "God" in one sense is a constant. The point I'm trying to make to Jerry is a human can't alienate a right he didn't grant.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Nope. They can only prevent me from exercising it. They cannot take my life and then have a life they can use. They cannot take away my ability to think and then have an extra ability to use. They cannot take away my capacity to pursue happiness and have more happiness themselves. Nor can I sell or give any of those things to anybody else. The purpose of the U.S. Constitution was to recognize and protect the unalienable rights of the people so that they, for the first time in the history of the world, would be able to live in liberty and exercise those rights without interference.

    To me that is such a simple concept. But for so many, it seems to be almost impossible to understand and appreciate.
    You blew your whole argument right there. That's exactly the point myself and others are making, and you essentially just confirmed it, though you don't want to. If someone takes your life they can and have taken every single thing you claim they cannot take. You are no longer able to do any of them. You want simple? That's simple.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Yes, I think I see your point. "God" in one sense is a constant. The point I'm trying to make to Jerry is a human can't alienate a right he didn't grant.
    "God" is to anybody what a person believes. I'm sure some of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence probably translated "God given rights" to "natural rights" in their understanding and didn't quibble over it. And maybe you will be more successful convincing Jerry that there is a difference between 'alienating a right' and denying a person ability to exercise a right. I haven't been successful in that.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    You blew your whole argument right there. That's exactly the point myself and others are making, and you essentially just confirmed it, though you don't want to. If someone takes your life they can and have taken every single thing you claim they cannot take. You are no longer able to do any of them. You want simple? That's simple.
    Sorry but the way I define words, destroying something or denying a person ability to do something is not the same thing as taking something. As I said, that concept is so simple to me. And it seems so difficult for others.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    You blew your whole argument right there. That's exactly the point myself and others are making, and you essentially just confirmed it, though you don't want to. If someone takes your life they can and have taken every single thing you claim they cannot take. You are no longer able to do any of them. You want simple? That's simple.
    Okay, let's try to make this really simple. If I'm sitting in class and I steal five cents from my neighbor's lunch money, is the nickel "mine"? I'm guessing your answer is "Yes"?
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I would feel more comfortable if we called them "ideals". More accurate, IMO.

    And yes, of course we should have them, but to me calling them "rights" is euphemistically misleading.


    To me, calling them "ideals" makes it too easy for politicians to say 'oh we fell a bit short on respecting this limitation but hey, it's an ideal and we all fall short of those don't we... "

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  10. #590
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    "God" is to anybody what a person believes. I'm sure some of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence probably translated "God given rights" to "natural rights" in their understanding and didn't quibble over it. And maybe you will be more successful convincing Jerry that there is a difference between 'alienating a right' and denying a person ability to exercise a right. I haven't been successful in that.
    Apparently, he's not the only one who needs convincing, but the other day 36% of respondents professed a belief in natural rights. It's gone up three points to 39%. Whee!
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