View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #571
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is not a matter of what libertarians understand. It is very much a matter of what reality they have adopted to keep safe their self imposed belief system and the lengths they will go through to live in an alternate reality that is divorced from the same truths and historical fact that the rest of us live in.

    You will never get your proof requested because it does not exist and they know it well.
    For the same reason we never get the proof for gods that they claim exists, they know it's imaginary and are doing everything they can to skirt the issue of their own abject failures.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #572
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you were unable to understand what I was saying. and continue to demonstrate that lack of understanding. once the founders adopted the bill of rights, the rights they assumed existed became part of the legal framework of this country

    the natural rights the founders recognized determine the scope and intent of the bill of rights. You don't like that scope and that intent so you pretend that arguing "natural rights" don't exist allows you to limit the scope and intent of the BOR
    that is all just so much your own lipstick on your own pig in your own sty. And in the end its still a pig.

    In other words Turtle - its still just a belief and all the laws in the world do not change that it is still a belief. The rights given by the Constitution are very much real. Any belief that they come from God or nature is just fantasy no matter how many laws bow down and worship before that same altar.
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  3. #573
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Just because people think this is true doesn't mean it actually is, just like people who believe in gods doesn't prove that gods actually exist. When are libertarians going to understand that simple fact? You have to actually prove the existence of a natural right, you can't just keep claiming it is so. Proof matters. When do we get that?
    you completely miss the point. the issue is not whether natural rights exist-in the same manner that a tree or a car exists-but why natural rights are such an important part of our legal fabric

    look, i get your almost fanatical hatred of religion and your attempts to obliterate religion from your world. but that is not relevant here.
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  4. #574
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    that is all just so much your own lipstick on your own pig in your own sty. And in the end its still a pig.

    In other words Turtle - its still just a belief and all the laws in the world do not change that it is still a belief. The rights given by the Constitution are very much real. Any belief that they come from God or nature is just fantasy no matter how many laws bow down and worship before that same altar.
    translation-you don't like the correct interpretation of the Bill of rights

    why not just come out and say it?
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  5. #575
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This topic seems to have popped up in a few threads recently so I thought I'd put this together. Put simply do you believe in the concept of natural rights? That is to say rights that are "not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable".

    Personally I don't. I think that Hobbes had it right when he intimated that the only 'natural right' that a human being possesses is the right to strive for their own survival. Everything else exists only at the sufferance of your own strength or the kindness of others. It is part of what makes civilization so essential and so valuable, because by creating a society we attempt to lift ourselves out of that war of all against all. This allows for freedom of speech, property rights, press freedoms, freedom of worship, etc. Absent organized society these 'rights' would be purely theoretical.
    I do not. It's a great theory, but it's only that, a theory. Reality is that the only "rights" you have are those which people stronger than you allow you to have.
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  6. #576
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There is no reason to think that any gods exist. Imaginary friends are pointless. Try again.
    There are plenty of reasons, including reason. I certainly don't take as "fact" something that hasn't been proven.
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  7. #577
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Is it? Did man think up the ability to breathe? To think? To hope? To aspire? To defend oneself and/or survive? To do what makes us happy or grateful or satisfied? Or are we born with such traits/ability as human beings without anybody willing that it be so?
    ...and somebody could come along and kill you and take all that away.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i have stated a higher power, which is what founders wanted to convey, because they removed the direct idea of religion in the document by removing the word "sacred", leaving the document more subjective.


    We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independant, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;

    the government of the u.s. is not religious at all, as one of the most religious men of the founders tells us, john adams in the Treaty of Tripoli

    the nation as a whole was built for a religious and moral people.
    The belief in a higher power is exactly what I had referenced. They do not specify a Christian God, or Hindu god, or any other specific god. But they definitely are not conveying 'natural rights' as existing outside of a theistic worldview. There is a constant problem with the term religion, as this more accurately means a group belief, and I should not have been using religion to describe the content of the DOI. So I will restate my post: Using the DOI to justify a belief in natural rights existing without a theistic/diety/higher power misses a key component of the writers' conviction. And since 'the nation as a whole was built for a religious and moral people', it is impossible to ignore that influence on the Constitution and DOI. An atheist or agnostic simply cannot embrace the preamble to the DOI without contradicting their own worldview.

  9. #579
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you completely miss the point. the issue is not whether natural rights exist-in the same manner that a tree or a car exists-but why natural rights are such an important part of our legal fabric

    look, i get your almost fanatical hatred of religion and your attempts to obliterate religion from your world. but that is not relevant here.
    Turtle - for many of us who do not believe in natural rights it has nothing at all to do with any attitude about religion. What it has to do with is a couple of very undeniable historical facts:

    1- natural rights came about as a theory because the political philosophers were searching for a counter weapon to the divine right of kings. It was simply a way of offering a trump card to divine right.

    2- when Jefferson used it in the Declaration of Independence it was used merely as justification for the very real actions they were taking as a direct slap in the face of the British throne and their authority. Even Jefferson did not believe the actual words he wrote as he lived a life completely opposite of his pompous statements.

    3- the Constitution and state constitutions create rights that may have been partly inspired by some peoples beliefs - but those beliefs do nothing in and of themselves as it is people acting through their created government that create the rights we have.

    4 - If not one person in the world or our nation today even remembered the term natural rights - we would still have the same rights we have because of the national and state constitutions. So they are irrelevant.

    People can go to church all day and night for all I care. It matters not to me . This is NOT about hatred of religion.
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  10. #580
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Read once again what I wrote. Only the grantor of a right can alienate it. If rights are "God given" and God can't take back something he gave then he's really not God, is he?
    Not at all. Most people who believe what God gives, God can take away. If He chooses not to do so, that makes him no less God. Since nobody is wise enough to know all that God is, such things are unknowable. If we could so neatly specify what God is or what God does, then He would not be much of a God.

    "God given" is the term used by the Founders to express their understanding of why the rights we are born with are unalienable as well as to honor the One from whom they believed all morality and ethics comes. Other philosophers before them from Socrates to Plato to Cicero to Otis to Hobbes to Locke et al used different terms to describe the concept. The most common is translated 'natural rights' in English. But the concept is the same. Natural or unalienable or God given rights are incorporated into the natural state of man. To have and exercise them requires participation or contribution by no other person and they cannot be sold or bartered or given away to anybody.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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