View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #561
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    1) the Bill of rights CREATED NO RIGHTS

    2) But MERELY recognized pre-existing rights

    3) that are not dependent upon the constitution for their existence
    now now Turtle - do I have to go into the vault and bring out your own words where you admit that the only place pre-existing rights existed was in somebody's head and they protected nobody? Because I will be happy to do that if it helps you remember your own admission on this.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-20-15 at 04:41 PM.
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  2. #562
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    How many times have we been through the same field of mud?

    Cruikshank expressed an opinion about a belief. That does NOT make that belief suddenly turn into reality. Of course, you should be aware of that since it has not changed with the rising and setting of a few suns since the pastime you were explained the same thing.

    no it stated what every honest person who studies the constitution understands

    the Bill of Rights was intended by the writers of said document to RECOGNIZE pre-existing rights

    those who try to pretend that the BOR is something else are generally those who do not like the limitations the BOR imposes on the federal government
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    now now Turtle - do I have to go into the vault and bring out your own words where you admit that the only place pre-existingrights existed was in somebody head and they protected nobody? Because I will be happy to do that if it helps you remember your own admission on this.
    you were unable to understand what I was saying. and continue to demonstrate that lack of understanding. once the founders adopted the bill of rights, the rights they assumed existed became part of the legal framework of this country

    the natural rights the founders recognized determine the scope and intent of the bill of rights. You don't like that scope and that intent so you pretend that arguing "natural rights" don't exist allows you to limit the scope and intent of the BOR
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  4. #564
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    History tells us what happened to them.
    Well, at least one helped win the war by wining and dining in the French court and in the process became a great statesman, garnered tremendous wealth, founded a university, died an old man on July 4th, and has his picture on the nickel and two-dollar bill. I'd call that a happy ending.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    The USA's 'founding fathers' fought the Revolutionary War to secure their own rights and freedom. Not for the rights and freedom of the women and slaves that they controlled.
    You're forgetting to mention the average Americans--farmers, cobblers, smiths, merchants, including slaves and even some free blacks, who "fought the war," often in wretched conditions. And let's not forget the "camp followers" (Women in the American Revolution).
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  5. #565
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so what did the 2A recognize given the supreme court in Cruikshank held that the 2A recognized a pre-existing right

    that is why your argument is specious and you think that the way to obliterate the 2A is to pretend its foundation does not exist
    Just because people think this is true doesn't mean it actually is, just like people who believe in gods doesn't prove that gods actually exist. When are libertarians going to understand that simple fact? You have to actually prove the existence of a natural right, you can't just keep claiming it is so. Proof matters. When do we get that?
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    well i was not arguing that point, i was just pointing out how the people of that time got around the principles of the DOI...having slavery
    The so called 'people of the time' did NOT write the statement of natural rights in the Declaration. Thomas Jefferson did. And Jefferson clearly and unmistakably said it applied to ALL MEN and we know that Jefferson considered Africans held as slaves as human beings and men.

    Thus, Jefferson did not even believe the statement himself and live a long life doing just the opposite of the hollow words he put on paper to awe the world with meaningless nonsense.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Gentle disagreement. A 'natural' or 'unalienable' or 'inalienable' or 'God given' right cannot be taken away.
    Read once again what I wrote. Only the grantor of a right can alienate it. If rights are "God given" and "God" can't take back something he gave then he's really not God, is he?
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  8. #568
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    1) the Bill of rights CREATED NO RIGHTS
    No, it simply wrote down the rights that society had decided would exist within the new nation.

    2) But MERELY recognized pre-existing rights
    Rights created by society, yes.

    3) that are not dependent upon the constitution for their existence
    They are codified into the Constitution as an official recognition of rights society had, at the time, decided upon.

    4) and which only prevents Federal action
    And how's that working out for you?
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Just because people think this is true doesn't mean it actually is, just like people who believe in gods doesn't prove that gods actually exist. When are libertarians going to understand that simple fact? You have to actually prove the existence of a natural right, you can't just keep claiming it is so. Proof matters. When do we get that?
    It is not a matter of what libertarians understand. It is very much a matter of what reality they have adopted to keep safe their self imposed belief system and the lengths they will go through to live in an alternate reality that is divorced from the same truths and historical fact that the rest of us live in.

    You will never get your proof requested because it does not exist and they know it well.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Read once again what I wrote. Only the grantor of a right can alienate it. If rights are "God given" and God can't take back something he gave then he's really not God, is he?
    There is no reason to think that any gods exist. Imaginary friends are pointless. Try again.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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