View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #471
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's not a proof or an opinion, it's an initial condition.
    Okay. And if I understand you correctly your argument is thus:

    1. Natural rights require that they be "inalienable."

    2. If natural rights require that they be inalienable, then one must demonstrate the existence of a right that is incapable of being alienated in order to even consider the existence of a natural right.

    3. Since no one has demonstrated the existence of a right that can't be alienated, natural rights do not exist.

    Am I close to correctly stating your argument? If I'm off base, please correct me by restating the argument.
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  2. #472
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    We haven't been discussing SCOTUS decisions in any year. And SCOTUS is not the authority on the definition of natural rights either.
    SCOTUS is indeed the authority on the Constitution and its meaning and application. And when persons posting here make statements about the Constitution, its meaning and its application it is indeed relevant, proper and appropriate to compare those statements in light of what the Supreme Court says. This is especially true when a poster makes a very extreme statement about the Constitution stating that the federal government is not given any power all over people.

    Whether or not natural rights exist is the topic being discussed. Somebody who thinks it is not reality based should expect to be challenged on that just as much as is the person who says it is reality based
    .

    And it is NOT reality based but rather is a belief based upon pure faith and acceptance.

    Those who can point to the background, the history, and the scholarly definitions are winning this debate.
    Unless someone here can actually prove with verifiable evidence what nobody in the last 350 plus years has been able to do - namely that natural rights is fact and not just a theory - there is no winning.

    Those who simply go 'no, no, no, natural rights don't exist' have so far not been able to articulate a reasoned or credible argument for that point of view or they change the definition to something they can more easily attack.
    It is incumbent upon those asserting a positive to prove that positive. Those denying the existence cannot prove that such a thing does NOT exist because that would mean proving a negative. I cannot prove that there are NOT three inch monkeys made of blue flame which play basketball underneath the surface of Uranus. That claim must be substantiated with proof to be accepted as fact.

    And when the argument is further weakened by trying to deflect the discussion to paint their opponent as mentally 'off' or delusional or some other uncomplimentary adjective, it is pretty clear who the winner of the debate is.
    You do not like the subject of right libertarianism being called into question due to its denial of reality and the implications that has for the holder of such beliefs. And your distaste to expose that hard and cold possibility does not dictate who "wins" any debate.
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  3. #473
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I fail to see what that has to do with my post.
    In your post you were insulting and disparaging of persons you call STATISTS. So you do not believe in the necessity of the state then Turtle? You reject the state and the government necessary because you have converted to anarchy?
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  4. #474
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    SCOTUS is indeed the authority on the Constitution and its meaning and application. And when persons posting here make statements about the Constitution, its meaning and its application it is indeed relevant, proper and appropriate to compare those statements in light of what the Supreme Court says. This is especially true when a poster makes a very extreme statement about the Constitution stating that the federal government is not given any power all over people.

    .

    And it is NOT reality based but rather is a belief based upon pure faith and acceptance.



    Unless someone here can actually prove with verifiable evidence what nobody in the last 350 plus years has been able to do - namely that natural rights is fact and not just a theory - there is no winning.



    It is incumbent upon those asserting a positive to prove that positive. Those denying the existence cannot prove that such a thing does NOT exist because that would mean proving a negative. I cannot prove that there are NOT three inch monkeys made of blue flame which play basketball underneath the surface of Uranus. That claim must be substantiated with proof to be accepted as fact.



    You do not like the subject of right libertarianism being called into question due to its denial of reality and the implications that has for the holder of such beliefs. And your distaste to expose that hard and cold possibility does not dictate who "wins" any debate.
    Everything here has already been discussed in some detail. I'll just refer you to my previous posts. Circular arguments are really not my thing.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    For what purpose? The document that is official is the one under discussion. Again - that is REALITY. You really have trouble dealing with REALITY and want to keep coming back to alternate realities that you subscribe to.
    no the problem is you cannt follow conversation you get into between other people. i stated tothe other posters the orginal draft was more relgious, then you jump in why i dont know...wait i do....just because you saw me post something.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Of course people have all kinds of Human Rights, like breathing, and Civil Rights, like voting, but this thread is not about any of those.

    This thread is about Natural Rights, spicificly and only.

    The definition of Natural Right requires that the right be inalienable. If a right is alienable, it may still be a right of some kind, but it is not a Natural Right.
    as i stated the constitution has natural rights and privileges ...ie civil rights /legal rights ....and that is all.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There is nothing emotional about an analysis of the motivation of a persons views when they are so divorced from the reality that almost everyone else lives with.

    But do tell us EB - what do you find EMOTIONAL about the American Psychiatric Association and their definition of psychosis and how it applies to the political views of some extremists?

  8. #478
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    no the problem is you cannt follow conversation you get into between other people. i stated tothe other posters the orginal draft was more relgious, then you jump in why i dont know...wait i do....just because you saw me post something.
    It is irrelevant because this thread is about natural rights and the clearest statement of a belief in them regarding our government is in the Declaration of Independence. Not the draft - not an early version - not in lines crossed out or musings - but in the actual Declaration of Independence.
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  9. #479
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Okay. And if I understand you correctly your argument is thus:

    1. Natural rights require that they be "inalienable."

    2. If natural rights require that they be inalienable, then one must demonstrate the existence of a right that is incapable of being alienated in order to even consider the existence of a natural right.

    3. Since no one has demonstrated the existence of a right that can't be alienated, natural rights do not exist.

    Am I close to correctly stating your argument? If I'm off base, please correct me by restating the argument.
    I'm not Jerry, but you aren't stating his position accurately. He says he understands what inalienable means and he has posted the definition. And then he proceeds to argue something other than that definition. He has argued that if somebody is prevented from exercising his/her inalienable rights, then such rights do not exist. Then of course it would logically follow that if somebody is not allowed to spend a dollar as he intends to spend it, then that dollar does not exist.

    Do you understand now?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is irrelevant because this thread is about natural rights and the clearest statement of a belief in them regarding our government is in the Declaration of Independence. Not the draft - not an early version - not in lines crossed out or musings - but in the actual Declaration of Independence.
    why do you jump into things, which do not concern you and act as if you are king over them?

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