View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #461
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Does matter who holds the views or how they are expressed. Whether the views themselves are right or false, can be defended or only denied. That is what matters.
    statists pretend that if they "prove" natural rights don't exist, they can then make the specious claim that the Bill of Rights really don't say what the founders intended the BOR to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  2. #462
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    statists pretend that if they "prove" natural rights don't exist, they can then make the specious claim that the Bill of Rights really don't say what the founders intended the BOR to say.
    When did you convert to ANARCHY my friend?
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  3. #463
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    On the contrary, I have perfect clarity.]
    It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about. If you don't begin forming some sense of a rational argument I'm going to have to move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    In order to be a Natural Right, the right in question must be immune to being taken away from you, nor can you willingly give it up.
    And why is that? That's not a proof. It's an opinion.
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  4. #464
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I agree somewhat with that. But when the supposed defense is based solely upon belief and that belief system is clearly NOT reality based and their views that are being forwarded are obviously far fringe positions that are not even shared by a single Supreme Court Justice in 225 years - that tells you volumes about the irrational nature of them. And it is right and appropriate to make that delusional belief system part of the discussion since that is what is producing the views in the first place.
    We haven't been discussing SCOTUS decisions in any year. And SCOTUS is not the authority on the definition of natural rights either.

    Whether or not natural rights exist is the topic being discussed. Somebody who thinks it is not reality based should expect to be challenged on that just as much as is the person who says it is reality based. Those who can point to the background, the history, and the scholarly definitions are winning this debate. Those who simply go 'no, no, no, natural rights don't exist' have so far not been able to articulate a reasoned or credible argument for that point of view or they change the definition to something they can more easily attack. And when the argument is further weakened by trying to deflect the discussion to paint their opponent as mentally 'off' or delusional or some other uncomplimentary adjective, it is pretty clear who the winner of the debate is.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  5. #465
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When did you convert to ANARCHY my friend?
    I fail to see what that has to do with my post.

    I was referring to people who attack the existence of natural rights so as to pretend that "shall not be infringed" actually means that the founders thought the federal government should be able to limit the natural right of free men to be armed up to a complete ban on firearms

    telling the federal government that the Bill of Rights prevents such limitations on the rights the founders all believed free citizens had, is hardly anarchy

    I suggest you look up anarchy and you will then realize it means a complete lack of government, rather than a "well regulated" and limited government that the founders wanted and I hope we return to
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  6. #466
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    statists pretend that if they "prove" natural rights don't exist, they can then make the specious claim that the Bill of Rights really don't say what the founders intended the BOR to say.
    Well, I don't know what their motives are though that might be as good an explanation as any for why a person would be so passionate about denying the existence of natural rights. I honestly can't comprehend how any American could deny that, but apparently a lot do. Just looking at the straw poll here, more deny it than embrace the concept. And that is a really scary thing to me.

    I wish DP could develop a policy that only those who post in a thread could participate in the poll. We might get more useful polling information that way?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #467
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    And why is that?
    Because that's what the linked sources I posted say a Natural Right is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    That's not a proof. It's an opinion.
    It's not a proof or an opinion, it's an initial condition.

    Proof is when we cite suicide as evidence that you can willingly give up your right to life, this demonstrating that your right to life is not inalienable, and therefore not a Natural Right. The suicide rate is the proof. The murder rate is the proof. The accidentall death rate is the proof. The death penalty is the proof.

    If the right to life were a Natural Right and thus inalienable, no one would ever die from anything other than natural causes.

    Even in only a legal context, if the right to life were inalienable then Due Process could never strip you of it, because it's inalienable, it cannot be taken away from you.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-19-15 at 01:19 PM.

  8. #468
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Of course people have all kinds of Human Rights, like breathing, and Civil Rights, like voting, but this thread is not about any of those.

    This thread is about Natural Rights, spicificly and only.

    The definition of Natural Right requires that the right be inalienable. If a right is alienable, it may still be a right of some kind, but it is not a Natural Right.
    Well, breathing isn't a human right. It's a human ability. I know the libertarians really don't know the difference between the two, but still...
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #469
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Well, breathing isn't a human right. It's a human ability. I know the libertarians really don't know the difference between the two, but still...
    Well I was thinking more along the lines of not having to pay a sort of air tax for breathing the City's air, that air is a kind of public use thing, but I didn't want to go into much detail.

  10. #470
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Well I was thinking more along the lines of not having to pay a sort of air tax for breathing the City's air, that air is a kind of public use thing, but I didn't want to go into much detail.
    A city could, presumably, charge an air tax and nobody could really stop them, assuming they had the military clout to do it. The idea that this thing is a right and nobody can say otherwise is clearly untrue.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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