View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #441
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    so now you are reduced to picking through drafts and scraps to find some language you believe allows you to fudge this issue even more? Amazing!!!!!
    read the original draft.


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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    don't need one, the founders say the federal government has no power in the lifes liberty and property of the people....that is fact.......

    you emotional content........is a breath of fresh air to the conversation......because it spells your desperation
    As usual - there is the world of EB based on his own willful mental processes which are clearly not reality based and then there is the reality that the rest of the nation lives with. The sad truth is that when you claim the federal government has no power over people - there is not a single US Supreme Court case which agrees with you. Not a one in 225 years. In fact EB, I have researched this and cannot find a single Court justice who holds your opinion that the federal government has no power over people. Not a one.

    That shows you how delusional your belief is. That shows you how far far far out there you are on this claim.

    http://accredited-times.com/2013/08/08/352/

    In May of this year, the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders was published by the American Psychiatric Association. This near-comprehensive set of diagnostic criteria is just another example of the progress which government-funded medical research has made in recent years. Many hurdles remain, however, and psychiatric professionals are discovering new personality disorders and previously unknown mental dysfunctions on a near-daily basis. With that in mind, I offer the two following observations:


    1: Psychosis is defined by experts as a mental state involving a “loss of contact with reality.” (1)

    2: Ludwig von Mises, a cult figure among Right-wing extremists and described by many as the “Paul Krugman of Libertarianism”, once offered the following bizarre statement in defense of his repugnant ideology:

    “Its statements and propositions are not derived from experience. They are, like those of logic and mathematics, a priori. They are not subject to verification and falsification on the ground of experience and facts. They are both logically and temporally antecedent to any comprehension of historical facts.” (2)

    The consensus amongst professional Economists today is that this statement is merely another glaring example of the shoddy circular logic and solipsistic reasoning for which extreme right-wing “thinkers” are notorious. Could it be, however, that an altogether more tragic story lies behind the creation of Ludwig von Mises’ hate-filled works? Perhaps history may judge the man more kindly if the sociopathic nature of his “philosophy” can one day be ascribed to mental ill health rather than wilful malice.
    This really needs to be explored much much more as an explanation for why not one Superme Court decision or even Justice agrees with your extremist beliefs.

    That is not emotional on my part - its hard cold fact. What you do not like is the obvious exposure of the nature of you beliefs and of the delusions that are at the center of your ideas and ideology. So you then turn and attack me with nonsense like you just did.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-19-15 at 12:14 PM.
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  3. #443
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Is that like a gun-free zone where a magical "matter of principal" forcfield is supposed to stop a would-be transgresser?

    As a matter of fact, he does not have any such inalienable right. Neither do you. Neither do I.

    These rights you speak of are perfectly alienable through Due Process and by force. They are not inalienable and are therefore not Natural Rights.
    It appears you're still confused. First of all, a principle can be a fact. Secondly, "due process" is a legal doctrine that bears little relation to the concept of a natural right, so when you try to blend the two you're mixing apples with oranges. Also, you're attempting to redefine the context and understanding of "inalienable" as it's been understood by philosophers going back at least to the ancient Greeks. Finally, when you assert that one person can, as a matter of fact, kill another, you're referring to a natural law, not a right.

    Now, I can't empirically or objectively prove that killing 50 or 60 million people in the span of just a few years like Mao did was wrong, and, for the sake of argument, I'm willing to concede that. On the other hand, when you claim that there is no inalienable, natural right to life the burden of proof falls to you. On what basis do you make that claim?
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  4. #444
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    read the original draft.
    For what purpose? The document that is official is the one under discussion. Again - that is REALITY. You really have trouble dealing with REALITY and want to keep coming back to alternate realities that you subscribe to.
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  5. #445
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    As usual - there is the world of EB based on his own willful mental processes which are clearly not reality based and then there is the reality that the rest of the nation lives with. The sad truth is that when you claim the federal government has no power over people - there is not a single US Supreme Court case which agrees with you. Not a one in 225 years. In fact EB, I have researched this and cannot find a single Court justice who holds your opinion that the federal government has no power over people. Not a one.

    That shows you how delusional your belief is. That shows you how far far far out there you are on this claim.

    Accredited Times | Of Mises and Madmen: Is Libertarianism a Mental Illness?

    That is not emotional on my part - its hard cold fact. What you do not like is the obvious exposure of the nature of you beliefs and of the delusions that are at the center of your ideas and ideology. So you then turn and attack me with nonsense like you just did.
    if you could use logic and not get into the emotional part of talking about me, maybe,maybe you could make your point, but until then.....your emotions, are "your own undoing"


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  6. #446
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    For what purpose? The document that is official is the one under discussion. Again - that is REALITY. You really have trouble dealing with REALITY and want to keep coming back to alternate realities that you subscribe to.
    because i just pointed out to the other poster.... that the original DOI was more religious then one which is in the national archives...


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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    if you could use logic and not get into the emotional part of talking about me, maybe,maybe you could make your point, but until then.....your emotions, are "your own undoing"
    Usually the name calling begins when your opponent has run out of arguments. I take it as a sign that he's growing tired and is about to bail to another thread.
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  8. #448
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    a person always has rights, however at times those rights are suppressed like being in prison following due process of law.
    Of course people have all kinds of Human Rights, like breathing, and Civil Rights, like voting, but this thread is not about any of those.

    This thread is about Natural Rights, spicificly and only.

    The definition of Natural Right requires that the right be inalienable. If a right is alienable, it may still be a right of some kind, but it is not a Natural Right.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    No. Your life cannot be taken from you by anybody nor can you transfer it, sell it, or give it away to anybody else. It can be ended by somebody killing you. But he who kills you did not receive your life in the process.
    They don't need to recieve my life.

    My life needs only to be alienated from me.

  10. #450
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    if you could use logic and not get into the emotional part of talking about me, maybe,maybe you could make your point, but until then.....your emotions, are "your own undoing"
    There is nothing emotional about an analysis of the motivation of a persons views when they are so divorced from the reality that almost everyone else lives with.

    But do tell us EB - what do you find EMOTIONAL about the American Psychiatric Association and their definition of psychosis and how it applies to the political views of some extremists?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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