View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #341
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    You're wrong. As a matter of principle, he does.
    Is that like a gun-free zone where a magical "matter of principal" forcfield is supposed to stop a would-be transgresser?

    As a matter of fact, he does not have any such inalienable right. Neither do you. Neither do I.

    These rights you speak of are perfectly alienable through Due Process and by force. They are not inalienable and are therefore not Natural Rights.

  2. #342
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    most of them are idiotic
    We can agree on that, at least

  3. #343
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    I'm not sure I know how to classify these rights. Maybe they're not rights at all and just "cultural universal". They're certanly part of the human condition and trancend government, so they're more than Civil Rights, yet they are alienable, so they're not Natural Rights.

  4. #344
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Right, they change with the civil structure as opposed to remaining consistent regardless of the civil structure. This makes life, liberty & property civil rights, not inalienable natural rights.

    Please note, the 14th Amendment provides that a person may be so deprived of their rights through Due Process. If these were inalienable rights, no process could deprive you of them.
    Unalienable rights are a very different thing from legal rights or constitutional rights just as social contract is a very different thing from a legal contract. However legal rights or legal contracts can be used to protect either or both. But both concepts are unchangeable and constant no matter what words we use to describe or define them.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  5. #345
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, actually it isn't. Ethics are subjective and legality is relative to the place you live and who you view as having authority over you. It is completely possible (no matter how improbable) that we could have aliens come to our planet tomorrow and claim ownership of the entire world, and every living thing on it, including us. Who gets to tell them no? Us? Well what if we are unable to defend "our" planet? What if it turns out that their species terraformed our planet billions of years ago and they really did technically own it?
    Again the fact that somebody may assume power to deny you the liberty to exercise your unalienable rights as you choose does not mean that those rights no longer exist.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #346
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This topic seems to have popped up in a few threads recently so I thought I'd put this together. Put simply do you believe in the concept of natural rights? That is to say rights that are "not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable".

    Personally I don't. I think that Hobbes had it right when he intimated that the only 'natural right' that a human being possesses is the right to strive for their own survival. Everything else exists only at the sufferance of your own strength or the kindness of others. It is part of what makes civilization so essential and so valuable, because by creating a society we attempt to lift ourselves out of that war of all against all. This allows for freedom of speech, property rights, press freedoms, freedom of worship, etc. Absent organized society these 'rights' would be purely theoretical.
    Rights can be legal, social, or ethical.

    Legally, in the United States, we do have some form of natural rights guaranteed by the constitution.

    Socially, it's pretty much dog eat dog absent some sort of shared moral backbone such as shared religious or moral beliefs that guide the conduct of how we treat one another.

    Ethically, we certainly do have the right to have done unto us as we would do unto others. Therefore, if you wouldn't want to be a slave, don't enslave others. If you wouldn't want to be robbed, don't rob others. If you wouldn't want to be silenced, don't silence others. Etc

  7. #347
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Unalienable rights are a very different thing from legal rights or constitutional rights just as social contract is a very different thing from a legal contract. However legal rights or legal contracts can be used to protect either or both. But both concepts are unchangeable and constant no matter what words we use to describe or define them.
    Inalienable rights are diferent in that they don't exist. Every right you have, can be taken from you.

    The only possible exeption is the persuit of happiness, because even if you're chained in a cell and doped up, you can still "persue happiness"; like the old saying "you can cage my body but never my spirit". But even that can be argued to be a condition of our being and not an actual right.

  8. #348
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Only because American laws recognizes you as a citizen and maritime law recognizes certain claims on islands that are not already claimed. However, all of that necessitates that those laws exist and that recognition exists, which are man made and subject to change at any time. So your claim on the land means absolutely zilch without the recognition of others saying that they agree to your claim and them being willing to defend you and your claim.

    Let me throw my 2 cents in here.

    Rights, by definition, can be either legal, social, or ethical.

    Beginning with the ethical - you can claim that ethics are subjective, and that's true to a marginal extent, but, largely, human ethics are universal. Nearly every culture on earth has an ethical system that boils down to the golden rule: do to others what you would have them do to you. In other words, treat people as you feel you deserve to be treated. That forms the foundation for what we might call "natural rights."

    Socially, if we can agree on this guiding ethical principle, we then interpret this and begin to structure society in a way that protects these rights for the members of that society.

    We then come up with laws. Laws which, of course, are unique to specific goverrmsnts and cultures but which, nonetheless, share a number of guiding principles.

    For instance, murder is illegal in nearly every culture on earth. This implies a right to life. Theft and slavery are nearly universally illegal. This implies the right to property and liberty.

    You see, we get so hung up on our differences sometimes, we start to believe morality and legality to be completely subjective and cultural. In fact, our commonalities are much more profound and run much deeper than our differences.

    Every child learns not to hit other children, to share, to treat others with respect, etc. These shared values carry in to adulthood and in to the laws which we create for ourselves.

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Inalienable rights are diferent in that they don't exist. Every right you have, can be taken from you.

    The only possible exeption is the persuit of happiness, because even if you're chained in a cell and doped up, you can still "persue happiness"; like the old saying "you can cage my body but never my spirit". But even that can be argued to be a condition of our being and not an actual right.
    You can have rights taken away in a legal and social sense, but never in an ethical sense.

    I wouldn't say that a slave has no right to liberty, I would say he has had his right to liberty trampled on by someone who doesn't respect that person's inherent human rights

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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    You can have rights taken away in a legal and social sense, but never in an ethical sense.

    I wouldn't say that a slave has no right to liberty, I would say he has had his right to liberty trampled on by someone who doesn't respect that person's inherent human rights
    There is no such "ethical sense" in the first place.

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