View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #321
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i do, and if i am an american and and my life is threaten, it is the duty of the u.s.federal government to protect me.

    just like they protect americans on foreign soil or at sea.
    Only because American laws recognizes you as a citizen and maritime law recognizes certain claims on islands that are not already claimed. However, all of that necessitates that those laws exist and that recognition exists, which are man made and subject to change at any time. So your claim on the land means absolutely zilch without the recognition of others saying that they agree to your claim and them being willing to defend you and your claim.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #322
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Only because American laws recognizes you as a citizen and maritime law recognizes certain claims on islands that are not already claimed. However, all of that necessitates that those laws exist and that recognition exists, which are man made and subject to change at any time. So your claim on the land means absolutely zilch without the recognition of others saying that they agree to your claim and them being willing to defend you and your claim.
    it is the duty of the u.s. to protect all citizens abroad and at sea from threats.

    if i was on an island, which i own and not within the jurisdiction of the u.s. or any other nation and i and others were say fighting off pirates who landed on the island and will kill me, and i could get a radio message to the u.s. federal government for help. ..it is their duty to respond.

    just like the people who were sailing off the coast of Somalia, the u.s. responded.

  3. #323
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    it is the duty of the u.s. to protect all citizens abroad and at sea from threats.

    if i was on an island, which i own and not within the jurisdiction of the u.s. or any other nation and i and others were say fighting off pirates who landed on the island and will kill me, and i could get a radio message to the u.s. federal government for help. ..it is their duty to respond.

    just like the people who were sailing off the coast of Somalia, the u.s. responded.
    Only because the US has agreed that it is its duty to do so. The citizens of the US agree that they should defend other US citizens. The US doesn't have to agree to that. If enough people said "let them take care of themselves", what exactly could you do?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #324
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Only because the US has agreed that it is its duty to do so. The citizens of the US agree that they should defend other US citizens. The US doesn't have to agree to that. If enough people said "let them take care of themselves", what exactly could you do?
    wrong the principles of the u.s. state that the rights of citizens are to be secure, and this nation was founded on those principles, and they are recognized by u.s. federal law.

  5. #325
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, this guy is Napoleon. Here's that video you wanted a link to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5c-oOxphvg
    The critic leaves me unsatisfied. For example, he makes reference to the "fact" that humans are programmed by evolution to value the survival of themselves and their offspring. But why would offspring value the survival of elderly grandparents who are long past the age of having kids? Where does something like non-romantic love or altruism enter the picture, and what's the biological imperative that furthers this behavior? Why would a person ever place the interests of a complete stranger above his own, especially one who lives in a different country or doesn't even speak the same language? And how would a failure of the altruist to act accordingly impact the survival of the human race?
    Нава́льный 2018

  6. #326
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    wrong the principles of the u.s. state that the rights of citizens are to be secure, and this nation was founded on those principles, and they are recognized by u.s. federal law.
    Because the US citizens agree to do so. Federal law can change. All laws governing men, that we live under, are subject to change.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #327
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because the US citizens agree to do so. Federal law can change. All laws governing men, that we live under, are subject to change.

    again you have nothing but your own words...your own words...no facts.... to prove your case, nothing!

    these are the principles of the U.S.....which are recognized by u.s. federal law, and is an organic law of the u.s.....and u.s. code


    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.


    enabling act

    AN ACT to provide for the division of Dakota into two States and to enable the people of North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Washington to form constitutions and State governments and to be admitted into the Union on an equal footing with the original States, and to make donations of public lands to such States.

    (Approved February 22, 1889.) [25 U.S. Statutes at Large, c 180 p 676.]

    [President's proclamation declaring Washington a state: 26 St. at Large, Proclamations, p 10, Nov. 11, 1889.]

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the inhabitants of all that part of the area of the United States now constituting the Territories of Dakota, Montana, and Washington, as at present described, may become the States of North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Washington, respectively, as hereinafter provided.



    SEC. 4. That the delegates to the conventions elected as provided for in this act shall meet at the seat of government of each of said Territories, except the delegates elected in South Dakota, who shall meet at the city of Sioux Falls, on the fourth day of July, eighteen hundred and eighty-nine, and, after organization, shall declare, on behalf of the people of said proposed States, that they adopt the Constitution of the United States; whereupon the said conventions shall be, and are hereby, authorized to form constitutions and States governments for said proposed states, respectively. The constitutions shall be republican in form, and make no distinction in civil or political rights on account of race or color, except as to Indians not taxed, and not be repugnant to the Constitution of the United States and the principles of the Declaration of Independence. And said conventions shall provide, by ordinances irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of said States:

    First. That perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured and that no inhabitant of said States shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship


    http://www.leg.wa.gov/History/State/Pages/enabling.aspx[/QUOTE]

  8. #328
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    again you have nothing but your own words...your own words...no facts.... to prove your case, nothing!

    these are the principles of the U.S.....which are recognized by u.s. federal law, and is an organic law of the u.s.....and u.s. code


    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

    AN ACT to provide for the division of Dakota into two States and to enable the people of North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Washington to form constitutions and State governments and to be admitted into the Union on an equal footing with the original States, and to make donations of public lands to such States.

    (Approved February 22, 1889.) [25 U.S. Statutes at Large, c 180 p 676.]

    [President's proclamation declaring Washington a state: 26 St. at Large, Proclamations, p 10, Nov. 11, 1889.]

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the inhabitants of all that part of the area of the United States now constituting the Territories of Dakota, Montana, and Washington, as at present described, may become the States of North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Washington, respectively, as hereinafter provided.



    SEC. 4. That the delegates to the conventions elected as provided for in this act shall meet at the seat of government of each of said Territories, except the delegates elected in South Dakota, who shall meet at the city of Sioux Falls, on the fourth day of July, eighteen hundred and eighty-nine, and, after organization, shall declare, on behalf of the people of said proposed States, that they adopt the Constitution of the United States; whereupon the said conventions shall be, and are hereby, authorized to form constitutions and States governments for said proposed states, respectively. The constitutions shall be republican in form, and make no distinction in civil or political rights on account of race or color, except as to Indians not taxed, and not be repugnant to the Constitution of the United States and the principles of the Declaration of Independence. And said conventions shall provide, by ordinances irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of said States:

    First. That perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured and that no inhabitant of said States shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship


    http://www.leg.wa.gov/History/State/Pages/enabling.aspx
    If a right is unalienable, then you don't need a government to secure it. An unalienableI right cannot be taken from you, or willfully given up, by any means. That's what the word means.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-18-15 at 10:30 PM.

  9. #329
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Sure, if I had enough money/resources to build a rocket to take me there. But do I have to do so to have ownership of something? You don't have to physically possess something to claim ownership of it.
    I was only curious how you were going to get there. Owning something without the ability to use it is completely pointless, but very much possible all the same.

  10. #330
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I never claimed the contrary.

    We're discussing "Natural Right", which must be inalienable. If a given right can be infringed it is still some kind of right, just not a Natural Right.
    You seem to be confusing the existence of a right with the ability to exercise that right. A slave has an inalienable right to be free even when he's a slave.
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