View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #261
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I just find it amazing that some pretend that the bill of rights was NOT INTENDED to guarantee such natural rights because the people who SIGNED (not the people who wrote the Bill of rights) the DECLARATION of INDEPENDENCE supposedly did not actually believe what the DOI said

    talk about a specious jump and a bogus attempt to limit what our constitutional rights are
    You cannot guaranty rights which do not exist before you create them. But besides that obvious reality your convoluted statement makes no sense. For a change why don't you try something really radical - instead of you telling us what people believe about this issue - simply QUOTE what specific people said and let them speak for themselves instead of the dishonest charade of you reframing what you want them to say in your own words so you can create a straw man and then thump your chest when you brutalize it? That would indeed be refreshing for a change.
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  2. #262
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Even the 'natural rights' that people did not have the liberty to express have changed over cultural boundaries (whether over time, or over geographical areas). The 'natural rights' enumerated in the US constitution are specific to US people and were not the same 'natural rights' Plato talked about. The concept may have been the same but the actual rights they discussed were different.

    The whole idea of natural rights presupposes a set, or list of rights that are intrinsic to the human condition. If that is the case then we certainly have not been able to unearth that true list. In fact, without some kind of divine intervention, the uncovering of that true list is only possible through informed discussion and critique, much like what happened at the constitutional convention. The problem with natural rights is then arises that as time goes on, we become more informed, and more able to have the discussions required to recognize what really should be a right and what really shouldn't.

    In another 1000 years, as we mature as a species and as a people, the rights recognized as belonging to the American people might include more. If then rights we recognize as natural are dependent on the time period we live in, our culture and our level of knowledge about the world and each other then there's not point considering them natural at all.
    Life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness have existed since the mythical Garden of Eden. They have not changed in all the time humans have lived on Earth. The words we use to describe them may change, the way we administrate and control them via various forms of social structure and government may change, but the concepts themselves have not and will not change.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #263
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pozessed View Post
    If I get stung in the neck by a bee, and I lose my ability to breathe, is the bee taking away my right to breathe or just the ability?
    You just lose the ability. You have a right to breathe whether or not you are able to. A bee cannot take that away from you.

  4. #264
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you cannot excersize the right, the right still exists but you have been alienated from it. It is still a right but it is not an inalienable right.
    That is incorrect. Your exercise of it has been stripped - the right itself has not. You retain the right to free speech when you are muzzled, you retain the right to free exercise of religion when you are imprisoned for your faith. You retain your rights when they are abused because the rights are not the same thing as the exercise of them.

    If you are blocked from practicing religion freely, your right to free religious expression has been alienated from you.
    That is incorrect. Your ability may have.

    Perfect example to prove my argument. If my car is stolen, it's still my car, but I have been alienated from it. It has been taken from me. Also if my car were inalienable, I could never sell it or give it away. My car is therefor not inalienable.
    On the contrary - your ownership of the car has not been stripped from you. You remain the rightful owner of the vehicle which someone else is now driving.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  5. #265
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness have existed since the mythical Garden of Eden.
    But the right to them necessarily has not.

    Caveman had no right to pursue happiness when his life revolved around protecting his family from sabretooth tigers.

    We humans fought for that right by coming together and building society.
    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK

  6. #266
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    But the right to them necessarily has not.

    Caveman had no right to pursue happiness when his life revolved around protecting his family from sabretooth tigers.

    We humans fought for that right by coming together and building society.
    Of course caveman, as much as anybody else, had the right to pursue happiness in any way available to him. For him happiness might have been defeating the sabertooth tiger or finding supper for the day or just enjoying great weather or whatever. We Americans indeed did fight for the ability to pursue happiness as we chose to pursue it unrestricted from the dictate of monarch or church authority or anybody else who would deny us that choice.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #267
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I know your arguments on this issue are without merit and the constant denials of a deity have no relevance to the issue
    You mean that thing that theists miserably fail to demonstrate? That deity? No wonder you're a libertarian, libertarianism is almost identical to religion in a lot of ways.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #268
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You mean that thing that theists miserably fail to demonstrate? That deity? No wonder you're a libertarian, libertarianism is almost identical to religion in a lot of ways.
    even i know TurtleDude is not religious at all.

  9. #269
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness have existed since the mythical Garden of Eden. They have not changed in all the time humans have lived on Earth. The words we use to describe them may change, the way we administrate and control them via various forms of social structure and government may change, but the concepts themselves have not and will not change.
    So if I have a right to property, does that mean I can claim the moon? Can anyone? If not, why not? After all, you are saying we have a right to own things, to property. What property do people have a right to own exactly?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #270
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    So if I have a right to property, does that mean I can claim the moon? Can anyone? If not, why not? After all, you are saying we have a right to own things, to property. What property do people have a right to own exactly?
    Sure, you can claim the moon. Can you get yourself to the moon though?

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