View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #251
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Even by your definition, your inalienable rights are only inalienable in the US, where they are protected by government. In any other country they are not inalienable at all.

    There are 154 constitutions in the world. Each of them specify different rights that belong to the people. You have no right to bear arms in England, nor in Australia, natural or otherwise. Not only is the right not 'inalienable', it doesn't exist full stop. If these rights are natural, why are they dependent on national lines which are clearly artificial?
    You do know that the question of natural law or inalienable rights has nothing to do with local systems of law?

  2. #252
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that's beyond stupid since unicorns are not the foundation of our law.
    And apparently, you have no idea what an analogy is.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #253
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    James Otis The Rights of the British Colonies

    1763

    Every British Subject born on the continent of America, or in any other of the British dominions, is by the law of God and nature, by the common law, and by act of parliament, (exclusive of all charters from the crown) entitled to all the natural, essential, inherent and inseparable rights of our fellow subjects in Great- Britain......


    The end of government being the good of mankind, points out its great duties: It is above all things to provide for the security, the quiet, and happy enjoyment of life, liberty, and property. There is no one act which a government can have a right to make, that does not tend to the advancement of the security, tranquility and prosperity of the people.


    The Rights of the Colonists

    November 20, 1772

    Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these: First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature.

    All men have a right to remain in a state of nature as long as they please; and in case of intolerable oppression, civil or religious, to leave the society they belong to, and enter into another.

    When men enter into society, it is by voluntary consent; and they have a right to demand and insist upon the performance of such conditions and previous limitations as form an equitable original compact.

    Every natural right not expressly given up, or, from the nature of a social compact, necessarily ceded, remains.

    All positive and civil laws should conform, as far as possible, to the law of natural reason and equity.


    The Declaration Independence of the thirteen united States of America July 1776

    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

    Amendment V


    December 1791

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


    AMENDMENT XIV

    Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

    Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.

    Section 1.
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    Last edited by Master PO; 05-18-15 at 02:07 PM.

  4. #254
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You do know that the question of natural law or inalienable rights has nothing to do with local systems of law?
    On the contrary, that is the absolute crux of the issue.

    If rights can exist under one system of law but not on the other hen they are not universal. If they are dependent on artificial boundary lines (where the difference is the system of law on each side of those boundary lines) then how can they be natural?
    "Education is the only thing you can do that will change society. Everything else is just a band-aid." - Jacqueline de Chollet
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    natural rights are part of the constitution

    Amendment V

    December 1791

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


    AMENDMENT XIV
    Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

    Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.

    Section 1.
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.[/QUOTE]

  6. #256
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And apparently, you have no idea what an analogy is.
    I know your arguments on this issue are without merit and the constant denials of a deity have no relevance to the issue
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  7. #257
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    On the contrary, that is the absolute crux of the issue.

    If rights can exist under one system of law but not on the other hen they are not universal. If they are dependent on artificial boundary lines (where the difference is the system of law on each side of those boundary lines) then how can they be natural?
    I guess you could see it that way, if you want to use useless definitions nobody would normally use.

  8. #258
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Even by your definition, your inalienable rights are only inalienable in the US, where they are protected by government. In any other country they are not inalienable at all.

    There are 154 constitutions in the world. Each of them specify different rights that belong to the people. You have no right to bear arms in England, nor in Australia, natural or otherwise. Not only is the right not 'inalienable', it doesn't exist full stop. If these rights are natural, why are they dependent on national lines which are clearly artificial?
    They are just as inalienable in other countries as they are here. The concept was recognized and written about extensively all the way back to ancient Greece and is found within the writings of such ancient philosophers as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle followed later by Cicero, the Stoics, and the great philosophers of the enlightenment, all living in societies in which people often did not have the liberty to exercise their natural rights, but knew that such rights existed nevertheless.

    John Locke argued that man was born into a state of nature in which he was rational, tolerant, and happy and could enjoy the rights of life, liberty, and property unhindered. But some chose to threaten the liberties of others and therefore humankind entered into a social contract aka compact in which all would agree on how society would guarantee the rights of all. Locke believed that the only reason for the existence of government was to preserve natural rights and, by extension, man’s happiness and security.

    Thomas Jefferson eloquently expressed such a concept with the Declaration of Independence that was intended to be affirmed by the Preamble of the Constitution and the way the U.S. government was structured.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #259
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    They are just as inalienable in other countries as they are here. The concept was recognized and written about extensively all the way back to ancient Greece and is found within the writings of such ancient philosophers as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle followed later by Cicero, the Stoics, and the great philosophers of the enlightenment, all living in societies in which people often did not have the liberty to exercise their natural rights, but knew that such rights existed nevertheless.

    John Locke argued that man was born into a state of nature in which he was rational, tolerant, and happy and could enjoy the rights of life, liberty, and property unhindered. But some chose to threaten the liberties of others and therefore humankind entered into a social contract aka compact in which all would agree on how society would guarantee the rights of all. Locke believed that the only reason for the existence of government was to preserve natural rights and, by extension, man’s happiness and security.

    Thomas Jefferson eloquently expressed such a concept with the Declaration of Independence that was intended to be affirmed by the Preamble of the Constitution and the way the U.S. government was structured.
    Even the 'natural rights' that people did not have the liberty to express have changed over cultural boundaries (whether over time, or over geographical areas). The 'natural rights' enumerated in the US constitution are specific to US people and were not the same 'natural rights' Plato talked about. The concept may have been the same but the actual rights they discussed were different.

    The whole idea of natural rights presupposes a set, or list of rights that are intrinsic to the human condition. If that is the case then we certainly have not been able to unearth that true list. In fact, without some kind of divine intervention, the uncovering of that true list is only possible through informed discussion and critique, much like what happened at the constitutional convention. The problem with natural rights is then arises that as time goes on, we become more informed, and more able to have the discussions required to recognize what really should be a right and what really shouldn't.

    In another 1000 years, as we mature as a species and as a people, the rights recognized as belonging to the American people might include more. If then rights we recognize as natural are dependent on the time period we live in, our culture and our level of knowledge about the world and each other then there's not point considering them natural at all.
    "Education is the only thing you can do that will change society. Everything else is just a band-aid." - Jacqueline de Chollet
    "Democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education" - FDR

  10. #260
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    complete nonsense. so it is your position that bill of rights was not intended to recognize and guarantee natural rights based on what the Declaration of Independence said versus what those who signed the DOI believed?
    I don't even understand what you are trying to badly to say.

    I said what I said. Why do you see the necessity to discard it and state what you want me to say in your words?
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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